Brad Brunet wrote:
If the game ends before my bulk turns are over, do I get a refund from the
"assigned" game back to my "account"?
Yes. Pro rata. Or you can arrange to assign them to the next game.
At which point then, what does "non" mean?
Read my lips: IF YOU YOURSELF DROP!
Gavin
Judging by comments on this list, there is still enough of a problem to
cause concern among players who want to be able to stay the course. Surely
that warrants reflection? And, even though Clint has got fairly good at
finding replacements, there is still the problem of what happens to the
nation prior to the drop (often a special service turn or two or three) and
while Clint signs someone up. (And, if you want to talk margins, then
offering a turn for free to someone taking over a position is roughly
equivalent to offering a ten percent discount on bulk turn buying...)
This is slightly a different topic. Basically that's quality of players -
ie how committed they are, quality of individual and team play etc.
That's harder to organise... up front payment - not a big fan of that. One
do we offer a discount for such? If we do we lose out. If we don't
players are less likely to offer it. (We tried this with giving a token
offer for investing funds with us and had a small, but very appreciated,
input of funds from players - so from that it's going to be unlikely we're
going to find players prepared to ante up so to speak.) So we're talking
about a small player base that are prepared to support such an endeavour at
present.
Clint
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There's a big difference between asking for £500 for investment and fifty
quid for turns... Two completely different issues!
Now, there is a way for you to gauge the potential for bulk turn buying:
look through your accounts and see what percentage of players already pay,
say, forty quid at a time or more into their accounts versus those who pay
turn by turn.
Gavin
ME Games Ltd wrote:
That's harder to organise... up front payment - not a big fan of that. One
do we offer a discount for such? If we do we lose out. If we don't
players are less likely to offer it. (We tried this with giving a token
offer for investing funds with us and had a small, but very appreciated,
input of funds from players - so from that it's going to be unlikely we're
going to find players prepared to ante up so to speak.) So we're talking
about a small player base that are prepared to support such an endeavour at
present.
I have a different idea, mostly because I'm not a fan of the volume discount: consider adding a NoDrop surcharge to the turn fees, you get it back if your nation's game ends "naturally", you don't if you drop/transfer. Or, a NoDrop Deposit added to set up - 10 or 20 US for example, same refund policy. While it's a potential similar outlay of funds as bulk buying, it's also likely easier to administer, across the board, and won't come rife with administrative headaches (ie, I buy 10 turns then pay-as-I-play for 4 then ask to buy 10 more, etc...)
Brad
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gavinwj <gavinwj@compuserve.com> wrote:
Now, there is a way for you to gauge the potential for bulk turn buying:
Weren't you vehemently against deposits a few months back when I mentioned
them...?
Still, it's nice to see us agreeing somewhere along the line.
Gavin
Brad Brunet wrote:
Gavinwj <gavinwj@compuserve.com> wrote:
Now, there is a way for you to gauge the potential for bulk turn buying:
I have a different idea, mostly because I'm not a fan of the volume discount:
consider adding a NoDrop surcharge to the turn fees, you get it back if your
nation's game ends "naturally", you don't if you drop/transfer. Or, a NoDrop
Deposit added to set up - 10 or 20 US for example, same refund policy. While
it's a potential similar outlay of funds as bulk buying, it's also likely
easier to administer, across the board, and won't come rife with
administrative headaches (ie, I buy 10 turns then pay-as-I-play for 4 then ask
to buy 10 more, etc...)Brad
Can't recall. All depends on context or potentially beer consumption... Feel free to search the group site and provide evidence of any 180's I've done. For some perspective, I most certainly prefer the very slightly increased turn fee to the largely increased set-up fee - just brainstorming, really.
Brad
Weren't you vehemently against deposits a few months back when I mentioned
them...?
Still, it's nice to see us agreeing somewhere along the line.
Gavin
Brad Brunet wrote:
Gavinwj wrote:
Now, there is a way for you to gauge the potential for bulk turn buying:
I have a different idea, mostly because I'm not a fan of the volume discount:
consider adding a NoDrop surcharge to the turn fees, you get it back if your
nation's game ends "naturally", you don't if you drop/transfer. Or, a NoDrop
Deposit added to set up - 10 or 20 US for example, same refund policy. While
it's a potential similar outlay of funds as bulk buying, it's also likely
easier to administer, across the board, and won't come rife with
administrative headaches (ie, I buy 10 turns then pay-as-I-play for 4 then ask
to buy 10 more, etc...)Brad
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Gavinwj <gavinwj@compuserve.com> wrote:
Well, I for one would be alienated if those who can *afford* 10 turns
consistently get a discount, while those who simply can't afford to ante up
10 turns worth (especially if they're already running close to the bone due
to Volume...) have to pay more. The rich get richer...?
* So Ford should only make Ford Focuses because not everyone can afford the new Ford GT? BMW should only make 3 series cars because not everyone
can afford the 7 series?
-Russ
It's a tough call on both sides. The only _overt_ penalty I see below is
the "bottom of the queue" for nation selection. Really, not much of a
penalty as the last time I recall a discussion about this there was a
significant constituency with the perception that they never got their first
selection anyway, so while they might enjoy getting it, they wouldn't notice
if they were "penalized" as such. (the poor paying more is a penalty too, of
course, I didn't think you were an American Gavin... 
)
So the benefits of "staying the course" are top of the list for nation
selection and a hand moderated bonus. Now, what if our perception is skewed
to the reality and Most players actually complete their games? Well, then
I'm in a list of those at the top of the list... And Most nations are now
handed a 2nd (hand moderated) bonus... Clint's rarely cheering these ones
one...
Not to simply rain on the parade. Thanks for the efforts, certainly a
worthwhile discussion, the type that often produces results in this
particular consumer-driven community (moreso than most others). I like the
ideas regarding supporting players on the brink, and would be more than
willing to pilot these policies in game 233...
Hopefully the discussion can centre on the carrots and the sticks: what are
the rewards for NOT dropping and what are the penalties FOR dropping out in
the minds?
To clarify *my* position, yes, drops are annoying at the best of times, some
moreso than others. But when dealing with people... I'm not in the
community of "fed up", so I consider myself an objective observer.
Cheers,
Brad
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 12:45 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Drop outs
>
> Unless there's a penalty to the dropping player, this is not going to
stop.
> Currently there is no penalty and Clint is afraid of instituting one for
> fear of alienating some players. Now, the question that arises from that
is,
> do you want those players in the first place...?
>
> There are proven solutions, but they will never be implemented here.
>
> So, the question become "how can we encourage players to stay the course?"
> instead. None are perfect, but they might be worth considering. Off the
top
> of my head:
>
> - If a player loses his capital, the turn fee drops for a few turns
>
> - if a player is down to less than five characters or a single MT or city,
> then the turn is free if using MEOW/Automagic/latest-gismo for order
> submission
>
> - if a player commits to playing through to the end of the game (excluding
> bug hunts unless previously agreed) and pays for turns in blocks of ten,
> then he gets a discount, but no refunds if he drops
>
> - a player who drops with a viable position is automatically at the end of
> the queue for nation assignment in the next game
>
> - players who consistently stay the course and finish games move to the
> front of the queue for nation assignment in their next game and are
> guaranteed to have at least two characters with bonuses in at the start of
> that game
>
> Gavin
>
> Kevin Brown wrote:
>
> > This has been discussed before without too much input from "the
> > company" except to state that this isn't a problem. I still think it
> > is. I've seen a number of people drop or suggest dropping even when a
> > team is winning or even. Sometimes there are "real" reasons for
> > people dropping a position, but occasionally people drop a position
> > just because they're starting a new game. While the problem may not
> > be with the game (and I agree it's not), it's not a problem that
> > people discussing it here are going to solve. The solution has to
> > come from whoever is running the game. I'm afraid that as long as
> > there is someone else to continue paying for the turns (now that
> > ought to get a response) there isn't a problem with people dropping.
>
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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"Why not play grudge teams" . . . . well, I don't know about the rest of you, but every grudge team I've ever played with came about by meeting people through open games.
Russ
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Brown
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:48 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Drop outs
Lots of comments here.
I'll reply to the question about why not play grudge games - I guess
this is making the assumption that people would be part of a team.
Personally I like playing the neutral nations - not pre-aligned
neutrals, actually non-aligned nations at the beginning. I don't mind
playing a neutral nation in a grudge match, but a lot of teams don't
want or like the uncertainty of neutral nations/players.
Kevin
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Colin Forbes" <colin@t...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I think it would be a mistake to assume that the majority of drop-
outs
> happen because of money. In my experience the most common reason a
> player drops a game is simply a lack of time. In fact money is
> probably third on the list behind in-game events that cause a player
> to simply walk away from the game.
>
> Personally speaking I buck the trend here, with money and in-game
> reasons fighting it out for the major reason I drop games. However,
> looking back over my notes on past games, a lack of time is far and
> away the most common cause for players dropping.
>
> Gavin suggests that a penalty needs to be imposed on a dropping
> player. I don't see how this would help the situation. Asking people
> to pay up-front would probably lead to slower game start-ups and
make
> little difference in the drop-out rate. People would think twice
> before starting a new game (lumps sum are always harder to justify
> than little payments) whilst this would not address the way time and
> real life events constrain the time people are able to devote to
gaming.
>
> Ultimately the choice to play or not to play is up to the player. In
> my view if ME Games penalise players or in any way regulate the
system
> in an attempt to reduce drop-outs, the result may well make the
overal
> gaming experience worse.
>
> ME Games offer a huge range of options in terms of game styles and
> variants. If you are someone that finds their game enjoyment is
> wrecked by drop-outs, then why not play grudge games? The drop-out
> rate from team games is much lower - and does not usually affect the
> game much.
>
> It's a free market out there, drop-outs are going to happen. I don't
> like it, you don't like it .... but excessive regulation or
penalties
> will not improve the situation. We just need to accept it as part of
> the gaming experience.
>
> Colin
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>>Well, I for one would be alienated if those who can *afford* 10 turns
>>consistently get a discount, while those who simply can't afford to ante
up
>>10 turns worth (especially if they're already running close to the bone
due
>>to Volume...) have to pay more. The rich get richer...?
* So Ford should only make Ford Focuses because not everyone can afford
the new Ford GT? BMW should only make 3 series cars because not everyone
can afford the 7 series?
-Russ
MEPBM is MEPBM. The issue is that we're _both_ buying Focuses. Other games
with different names might qualify as Expeditions, Benz's, etc... Gavin
wants to buy 5 of them for his rental fleet at 18,500 each but I'm only
buying one (at a time) so I have to pay 20,000.
A tangential argument from the "volume discount" would be that while I'm
financing my $20,000 Focus over 48 months at 0% interest, Gavin wants to pay
the Cash Purchase Price of 18,500 up front.
Either way you look at it, "conventional mass consumerism" supports this
type of price variation. I don't believe this product serving this market
would necessarily be better served by playing those macro-economic games.
But as an understanding and objective type, I proposed increasing the price
of the games for *everyone* and giving it back when (IF) your game ends
"naturally". Someone then brought up the possibility that players will
intentionally self-destruct in order to "quit" and get their surcharge back.
Who's to prove that it was 'intentional' and not simply a "mistake"...?
Well, you could add a Dumb-Dumb clause that defines "naturally" as "As a
result of enemy actions or allegiance victory" such that people who Buy
instead of Sell and cash-out lose their dough. The more you consider
various pricing schemes to alter player behaviour, the more you tread the
fine line of losing a popularity vote regardless of what you do. Much ado
about nothing, and all that.
Regards,
Brad
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.K.Floyd" <rkfloyd@charter.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Drop outs