Thanks for the well reasoned explanation of your experience. In your opinion however what do you think the Free could do to mitigate this advantage. From what I am seeing this is a gold issue then; and not a buys and sells issue. You addressed the conjure mounts, but what if the Free are selling mounts also or conjuring them as well. I know the Dwarves at least have access to an artifact that would allow that. Suppose this artifact was passed around to each nation and the Free did the same thing. Wouldn’t this make it a bit harders for the DS to exploit mounts? Since the Free have a lot of access to plains hexes that are fairly secure couldn’t they camp them and improve mounts production and thus flood the market with mounts? I know it has been addressed before but won’t all these gold transfers show up in the rumors. I am also curious about the banker himself. What is he doing with all this gold. Surely he is not funding the needy nations; that would take a bunch of capital orders. This would make him vulnerable to character attack. I know that it has been suggested that for example the LR with his hidden capital could not be stolen from but then again what is he to do to stop raids. There was a suggestion that a decent agent be there to guard. What does he guard the characters in the capitol well he can only guard one of those and then he must refuse challenge or Elrond just whacks him while Tharanduil and Bain and Tarondor challenge everyone else. The first turn after all that gold shows up and the LR doesn’t refuse with everyone at the capitol he could lose every character there. Then what do the DS do? I think it is working now because not a lot of effort or thought has been allocated to countering it. This could make for some interesting gaming.
Hey Brad, my quick response is anything the freep do to counter the DS will take time and by that stage, the horse could already have bolted. I still think its an unfair tactic by the DS to take advantage of, something which seems even further from the spirit of the game, I just don’t think this game was meant to be played in such a co-ordinated manner, heck sometimes I think even market buyouts are a bit unfair!
BB’s comments about the harad are interesting though. But those occasions are pretty rare but imagine if it started cropping up every game? We could a complete shift in tactics as the freep may longer go the economic pressure win, maybe they would go characters and it would be more like 2950?
I have always wondered what would happen if the freep all named 4 agents at the start. 40-48 (12 grudge) freep killer agents coming on line by turn 10, now that would be an interesting sight. I guess I don’t like change.
In the G16 there was no need for many gold xfers because sell prices were so good. To the extent that gold xfers were needed on t3+, it was from rich non-banker nation to poor non-banker nation. So rumours cant have really helped to reveal who the banker nation was. If we’d wanted to move the banker nation around we could have done, albeit that the market fee would have been a big number
Of course this means that banker doesnt need any more capital orders than anyone else
The FP have an economic advantage and the DS have a character advantage. If 11 or 12 FP nations named just 3 agents in their first four slots (typically forgoing Emmies) it would mean that by turn 10 the DS would have many more pop centres (they would have started camping earlier and thus have more camps laid but would their ‘economic’ position be better or would it now just be levelled with the FP)?
So perhaps when the FP see the market spike on turn 1, the correct reaction is say… “we can’t win economically now, change of tactic, everybody churn out agents”.
churn out agents? whoa, they will be able to steal gold on t 5 and start to kill around t 15 at best - if the FP front nations do not name commanders to max out recruiting the game will be long over by then…
I have only seen one effective FP strategy so far, and that is rolling over the DS militarily and eliminate enough of them
a) to make them give up OR
b) to be able to cope characterwise against the surviving rest
there are many ways to that goal, but the goal stays the same.
to stay in the picture: it means storming up the stairs and hitting enough “stop” buttons so you can get to the top floor before the elevator. the banker nation exploit makes that much, much harder…
I have to aggre here… I do believe there is a benifit in open games for all FP to make one 30 agent…
The FP use of their Military advantage must be used wisely … Not pressing that advantage means they will lose Banker nation or not.
Let me add this bit of hard data who think the FP can combat this. In a recent game 1650 game, we tested this “banker strategy” on T1.
Now I have a camp that produces 160BR/160ST/30MI a turn - nothing special; not even a gold camp. The value of that production (i.e. if I just sold those three products locally via three 320 orders) on Turn 5 was 10520 gold.
Turn 5 - 10K gold. FTR, by T8 it was up to 12.7K gold. One camp - and it’s not even exceptional.
Free People can do whatever they want directed at that banker nation - but if that Gold stockpile exists for even a handful of turns, it’s not going to make a difference. The DS can rebuild it immediately.
The impact is literally jaw-dropping - and it needs to be fixed.
I had a look at the game - the market is strong on the latest turn but there are things the opposition could be doing about this in this particular game. Note the market isn’t broken on it by any stretch (food’s at 1 for example). I wonder if it just needs the opposition to play to it - looking at the market in that particular game our Grudge team would love it…
My point is simple… If one nation gathers a huge some of gold why would prices rise… Gold reserves should have no bearing on market prices to begin with… Only the buy’s and sells should effect market prices…
There is no question that High prices benifit the DS becuase the most profitable sells comes from mountain terrains Mithril Steel and bronze… If a Banker nations keep these prices high non reflective of Natsells of these items then The Market is truly broke and should be fixed…
Market manipulation a team buying all the resources up to increase market prices should be allowed and even though DS have strangle hold on the most profitable resources should be allowed becuase that is reflective of market prices based on laws of supply vs demand…
I believe the DS should be allowed to take advantage of the Fat Cows of the FP stealing them blind becuase they create huge gold reserves on turn 1 by stealing them blind… Then creating and developing thier already superior characters from FP foolishness… This already happens and can allow every DS team to win every game by capitolizing on this alone…
I just don’t believe an unrealistic market prices based on Gold reserves that even the Caravan merchants would never know about should have any bearing on market prices… Under any type of Merchant controlled market prices … Price is purely based on the Laws of Supply vs Demand…
While yes, the FP can do stuff to cut into this advantage…the DS can also engage new tactics to take advantage of the obnoxious levels of gold.
How would you like say…the BS naming E10’s and sending them over to the CL capital to challenge new agents…mmmmmm CL agents moving off the capital with a guard order plus another 7-8 pts. from the challenge…ditto for IK guys, mages etc etc etc.
This is a tactic the FP can ALREADY use to boost thier character strengths…now the DS will have enough cash to do the same.
The DS also save quite a few orders not having to do buyouts and transfers…and raise your hand if you ever had a nation go under because the buyout got thwarted or something else screwed up in the sending etc.
The DS nations are more resistant to elimination when they can sell 20k worth of goods from any peon camp somewhere.
Challenge skill boost is based on relative difference in ranks. E10’s will die (95/100…) and give 1 point boost 95 times out of 100. If not a waste of time and money, then a waste of orders.
This to is not about the other Challenges of Fairness between DS and FP starting strengths and weakness’s and tactics used between the two… Just simply since a Banker Nation Holds market prices up on the very products being sold more than bought is this reflective of a true Free Market… I say No way… I believe Market prices come from the availbilty vs the demand or lack of…
Side note from game fantasy… Could you really imagine Trade caravans Visiting Mordor? They would all be slain and or enslaved products stole… DS selling to the Market Steel so FP could buy it? Mounts hmm FP or Nuetrals breeding Wargs! Just a little imaginary fun from how The Market buys and sells are twisted for Game fairness for both sides that should not be change
GM’s in ME25 did some tricks and it took us a few turns to lower prices back down, about 5-6 (claim of no nation banker but we got 3 msgs turn 1 of shipments to one nation, and a few other shipments - i dont think they are doing the banker as we have discussed but other smiliar actions). Turn 6 was about was about as fast as we, as FP, could lower market prices. BUT - the damage is done (and don’t tell me “use agents” - it is naive to say FP agents can do massive gold threats by turn 5). Example is that the DS just bought out 125,000 gold worth of Bronze, in addition to fielding massive armies by 2950 standards. FK alone has over 4000 HI. in 2950! 125k spend on BR!
Is that unbalancing? Not sure. Ask me after we swap sides and we play ds =)
JB: We’re happy to play FP for 2950 - usually win a lot quicker (average turn 7 I think). Note we get around 3 requests for a game for each one we play…
2950 I think it has a lesser impact than 1650 in the disparity. Playing with the economy and your nations to maximise income is interesting in many ways but very intensive for both planning, co-ordination, team-work and within game resources (armies, pcs, characters etc).
Not if the “intensity” is comprised solely of “Ship all your gold to XXXX”. Very easy to Do, very difficult to “counter” - back to Elevators and Stairs.
I really even in this case believe it’s way more complex getting even 3 players in any game economically on same page beside a Grudge team…
I also Find that any effective strategy against a Banker Ds nation nearly impossible becuase of players with great expierence using poor economics tactics and still wining the game as Fp. The game is just not as simple as a gold transfer… To natsell or not natsell… To hike taxes to 60 % or keep them low… You must at game start plan your first 3 turns economically to fund all your moves and as FP not give then a huge Gold reserve to steal…
I can only imgine the discussusions The Dragonlord, Witch King and Ice King must be discussing when asking them to send a major part of thier reserves to set this up… Dragonlord in particular goes to instant Lifet support!
Most challenges are lopsided affairs with little difference in the chance of winning if the rank difference is >20.
It is already a proven fact that the lower your rank the more skill you gain all things being equal. ie) An A40 will gain more skill stealing, guarding or winning a challenge than an A70 would.
I suspect that some people have confused their causation after observing characters like Elrond, Murazor etc. gaining only small amounts of skill from challenges and thus created this old-wives tale.
If anyone has data or an article citing data where they want to correct me on this then great but from what I’ve seen this isn’t true.
Hmmmm…I said it will work and you refuted me but won’t\can’t back it up? Better throw some salt over your shoulder to scare off the evil spirits and blow on your dice…that makes them extra lucky.
According to your “theory”…a C40 vs. an A30 or E30 would only gain 1-2pts of skill.
