Is that relevant to the thread Ed? Why not ask Clint by email or private message? <yawn> 
laugh less…
post less…
generally be a more glum human being…
so THANKS BRAD!
Dave
Griffy: Perhaps because it effects everyone?
You mean affects? Save your sniping to private messages
It’s pretty obvious that the nation banker strategy won’t be changed in the near future until actual data comes in on the topic.
This makes our course of action very simple…either play with it and see how it develops, don’t play or agree with your opponents not to use it ahead of time. (ie. This is done all the time with “no bug hunt” agreements in grudge games)
Personally, I would prefer to just not play with it and let others guinea pig for me but whatever floats your boat. 
To this point, I think we just bury this badly wounded horse as frankly we can easily manufacture our OWN fix if we think it’s broken. Personally, I think bug hunts are worse than this thing and I’d never play a grudge game without some sort of bug hunt exclusion.
P.S. The +10 skill bonus thing clearly favors the DS so I choose not to play with that either (unless the game will reverse sides)…although it’s not really an advantage because the free could just play better to counter it. :rolleyes: 
I really don’t think it will need changing. There will be tactics that will be discovered that make this strategy dangerous and counterable. It will be fun discovering them and once they become common knowledge the tactic will be like all the other game busting tactics ever developed, just another part of the game.
:hug:
Regards Herman
Arthy 51
Fire King Grudge 37
Woody Grudge 17
I have only been involved in one game where the ds used this tactic. Some points to raise:
- It takes valuable orders for each nation to tfer to the ‘one’
- It holds 200K+ out of the ds economy.
- Each nation has to keep selling all it’s stuff, using orders.
- All the nations walk the thin bankruptcy line and it uses more orders to keep sending gold and produce to the needy.
- The freep economies are also pumping
It is nice however to see the high market prices and the behind the lines nations can flourish.
If the freep suicide armies against nations walls, and just use their now huge economies to 770 and replace comms, as well as steal lots from vulnerable ds camps…
Adrian
- It takes valuable orders to transfer products & do buyouts too.
- Perhaps it may delay some things…you may have a point here.
- How is that different from ANY game?
- The line get’s a lot thicker when you can sell from any peon camp.
- To some extent this is true but it may make buying things like timber for warmachines etc. harder given the ratio of price to income would be higher.
Steal from camps? 
Why not towns?
Also
Basically, the DS currently have to scrape and beg if they’re 2000-5000 in product sells, that’s using all those supposedly wasted orders on selling EVERYTHING. The DS have this “lots of metals” reputation - but what kind of money does any single DS nation make of it’s sells? Combined, sure, the DS have more metal production. 1000 st a turn is a lot nicer to look at then 43, but selling at 2 it get’s you 2000 a turn. Selling at 23…?
The DS have significant economic constraints. This “gambit” removes those constraints, and does so at a cost of fewer orders than they currently lose desperately trying to stay alive. End of conversation. The only issues on the table are 1) whether it’s “fair” and should be “fixed” and 2) What do the FP do about it (if anything)?
Veo,
What I think those people that do not agree with you are saying is that there have been too few games where this tactic has been used by the DS for any reliable FP counters to be tried and either succeed or fail (as you seem to think). I do not disagree with you and your analysis, but I do not yet agree with you. I was one of the Free in PWR16 and we were able to quickly figure out that the Long Rider was the banker nation but not having seen that situation before we were unable to develop a counter for it. We did steal gold from Olbamarl with the Noldo twins but they only got 5K gold or so which probably didn’t make any dent whatsoever in the LR reserves for it to matter.
Scavenger
I’m confused by your statement. What am I saying that people disagree with exactly from your perspective?
If people do not believe that a Single Nation Banker works, there is nothing to be done about that, they’ll finally get around to believing it when it happens to them. Not an issue - if you don’t believe, pretend…“consider the possibility…THEN what would the effects be on the game? Hypothetically, and all…”.
Do people not believe that the DS have significant economic constraints? I honestly can’t recall actually saying much more than those 2 items with any consistent definitiveness. Besides the whole challenge skill increase bit, tangent of misery that.
I’m actually pro ignoring the market as a FP, always have been, that might change, who knows. I’ve played some economically constrained FP before who would love not having to beg continuously. Not ever having to sell Timber might just make up for the 20,000 each DS can make selling their steel, IMO… There are always 23 things you want to do and rarely the orders to ever acheive more than 4 of them, I have more fun eliminating Clint’s Harad with Northmen purchased timber made into Corsairs War Machines given to a Dun All Cav Navy sailing the starting Noldo ships on turn 7 than worrying about the market…
Adrian, with all due respect, I don’t agree with your first 4 points. You do hit the nail on the head with your point5:
point 1:
I’m playing in my 2nd game where the DS are doing this and I must say that it is one order to do the transfer and from that point on, it takes less orders per turn to run your DS economy than it would in a normal game. i.e. one natsell will suffice instead of more. There are fewer requirements for a friendly nation to TranCar GO or commodity to the “needy” DS, saving multiple orders on some turns…
point 2:
In both games, the DS treasuries had recovered by turn 5 or so to be STRONGER than they would otherwise have been. The $200k-$300k in the banker nations’ vaults are really free
point 3:
see my answer to your point 1 above. No, you don’t have to keep selling. You have to sell less. You have more commodity left over to use…
point 4:
quite the opposite. Using the banker nation exploit, the DS are much safer from bankruptcy. MUCH
point 5:
YOU ARE CORRECT! DING DING DING. Your point 5 is the best point and the one that will result in interesting FP tactics to take advantage of the exploit. I am already seeing a whole lot more HC coming out of AR/CA than would otherwise be possible…
Dave
DING!DING!DING!
Dave/Brad (aka the Ding-a-ling boys <g>):
Why would there be more Arth/Card HC? I would think there should be LESS. Any FP grudge team ought to arrange their affairs so that they not only don’t sell their mounts, but also buyout all available on the mkt. In G33 on T10, mounts cost 107 each (and leather 16), so even with the per-turn mkt sale limit up around 30-35k, the FP have LESS ability to buy mounts on the open mkt. The FP tax base is the same (and with outrageous prices, the temptation to cut taxes is stronger) but they are bringing in only ~15k per turn more than they would’ve if the mkt limit were down around 20k like a low mkt price game. 20k will buy 1300+ mounts if they cost 15 each, but 35k buys only 300-something if they cost over 100.
Buying would be somewhat problematic at those prices, but Not Selling is easy. Normally, you’ll get a few FP not selling some of these key products. With such high across the board prices, TI and MO never have to be sold. Take a look at total team production - organized even half-assedly, that’s a whole different kind of military one can run…
The important point I think most are missing here is that any counter strategy to the DS banker issue takes too long. I am involved in two games - one where a pseudo-strategy is used against us, and one my team is using it - I dislike both. I would use information from both to back up my argument but I can’t as they are ongoing.
But to simplify, say a DS nation sends a banker 20k gold. Prices in both games have risen where on T1 sales remedy that 20k, and by T3 that nation has built up 40k in reserves and 50k in store values (and prices are not even THAT high). So now prices go back down, say on T5 they are “normal.” Reserves have climbed to probably around 50-55k, and store value lower. Note this is a poor economic nation (I am trying to be vague while using an actual example). As DS, sounds good to me! For no cost I’ve got 50k in the kitty at a minumum, assuming FP can drop the market by Turn % (i.e. that is my baseline).
So what should FP do? Steal? No agents good enough T1. Sab Stores? Same. Flatline their economies? Fine, takes a few turns. Sell tons of product? I think looking at stores that is being done in my game, by both FP and DS (DS using prices to raise cash). Still not helping a lot.
So by turn 5, the DS have reaped a few hundred thousand in gold, and probably have been able to freely upgrade a lot of MTs to town, increasing recruiting base and economic base (effectively without any concern for cash, Pec and Voice can upgrade one each per turn). FP can’t counter that.
So the damage is done too quickly for FP to counter. The base case is a few extra hundred thousand gold in 5 turns. Anything past that is extra gravy.
Dragons are countered by dragon killers. You can organize a dragon killer by the time dragons appear. Market manipulation via buyouts can be countered effectively. To me, as a DS using Banker eliminates many challenges in the game for DS, and as a FP I do NOT see a way to effectively counter it when it matters most - immediately. Nothing I have ready so far effectively remedies the early game.
BUT - I don’t think it should be banned yet because someone smarter than me may come up with something. I think GMs are being a bit naive in thinking it is not an issue, but I also think they are right to see if the players can find the “solution.” BUT - I will request any game I am in - DS or FP grudge - to agree to not employ the strategy because it makes it no fun. And why play a game that is no fun?
BUT - I don’t think it should be banned yet because someone smarter than me may come up with something. I think GMs are being a bit naive in thinking it is not an issue, but I also think they are right to see if the players can find the “solution.” BUT - I will request any game I am in - DS or FP grudge - to agree to not employ the strategy because it makes it no fun. And why play a game that is no fun?
Note it’s clear to me it is an issue… I’m open to be convinced. We’re chatting about it now in the FTF that is just about to kick off. I personally prefer that players find a solution - there’s sometimes a “this need to be done NOW” reaction that I’m wary of. Eg the DS winning games. I also think that players are just getting better at the game…
Clint (GM)
I agree about MO/TI not ever having to be sold. That was pretty much my point, a 1650 FP grudge team shouldn’t have to (thus ought not to) sell their mounts in a “normal” price game, so I don’t see why there would be any more FP HC on the board.
Just a few points…
How much extra struggle is it for the free to rebuild bridges when the DS employ this banker strategy? Buy lots of timber at stupid prices for them to be sabotaged again next turn?
Burning the Dragon Lords capital used to cause him much grief and could often make his cashflow spiral out of control…removing him from the game. With this new strategy, he sits in Mordor with his nice new City and laughs, using his already powerful characters to cause further mayhem…
How do the free get into Mordor when after turn 10 or so, its held secure by huge DS forces sitting on cities…cash flow in winter is no longer a problem to finance these extravagances?
Drew, I would love to agree with you, but see too many “experienced veteran grudge players” sell product after, subtly, “ignoring” the email threads where this was discussed…can’t get around dealing with people, and is one reason why there is no “team” with my name on it…
Griff, FP can build a new bridge every turn with their natural timber production, so this is not an issue. Your other points are certainly valid.