This is just a part of the of the statement… By itself would not have even been worth mentioning… The statement about the missed threat IK dropping tax rate is a good move… But it noteworthy on same turn 3120 was improved to MT… Once again could happen in any game… Now Dragonlord improving Goblingate to a city on the very same turn with the other two Is dramatic… Once again by itself could be done… All these together in one turn by one team and the market prices not Crushed with the natsells that would drive all metals to near 2 or 3 even 4 is Huge becuase the deficts would be unblieveable… The fact one turn later the Market prices actaully rose as the DS team natsells increased and increased the banker nation… Speaks volumes on how bad the econmoy is broken when employed… This means paying attention to your tax base and increasing it through player skill of making sound economic decissions for longterm game is negated by nations simply sending the same gold reserves on turn 0 to another nation on turn 1 watching market prices rise…
Heck As NG on turn 1 I didn’t even natsell becuase I hate huge gold reserves … Starve those DS agents !.. I know that works… But here they can steal from each other or even the banker nation instead of wasting a 948 that everyone see’s…
It’s completely naive to also say I am employing tactics to help them… even my natsell was food sold at one to post camps and name characters that should have held the market down by flooding it with food…
For people to believe that FP actaully should sell mounts and the market. That Banker nation help to retain them is nuts… I rarely if ever sell mounts … I perfer to buy them and keep mine… That is FP ace in the whole so to speak… we transfer them… and Use them… there is no better Dragon equalizer than HC in steel armor … Drives the DS nuts to send 800 HI with dragon to find their army gone the dragon Gone and a FP icon still there…
My worse fear That even If I manage success against Banker nation… Everyone who wants it will say Terry team beat it ,it’s not broke! But I will say this the Only way to beat a Banker nation DS is get into Mordor and take Capitols… They must take at least 1 by turn 6 and 2 by turn 10… Then just maybe a Banker supported DS might be beaten Very late in the game…
"Actually, not my view at all. The point of the argument is not that market prices are broken, its that the team can pool gold to one nation and this boosts prices in and of itself beyond the reasonable (subjective, I know). "
The original post was that game 37 the banker nation had been used and the prices of the market had inflated. I looked those prices and didn’t see any inflation nor any impact that I could see in any other ways. Now in game 16 I have seen big market prices that were claimed to be from One Banker Nation - I’m not 100% sure that was the reason ( I would probably say it was a factor but I’m not sure).
As to is it a problem? Even if it is in the game and works the way some players are suggesting it does, I’m not 100% sure it is a problem. (Partially this is due to not seeing the same evidence you guys have seen - I concede that it could be a problem - ie that having 100ks of gold in the game could well do that).
To get that evidence I would need to have hard facts. To get those hard facts I would need to run a test game where I have the same base data (eg Turn 0) run a banker nation, a control (normal game turns) and then a final turn where I hiked the market gold in a per nation increase. That would give me the evidence to get a more accurate feeling. Should I do that?
Clint,
PoWeR 16 was definitely a banker nation led economic explosion.
Look also at Grudge 33. Same thing.
It works. Stop disbelieving. If you can’t look at those and other games where it’s being used, then do run the control if that is what it takes to convince yourself.
Then, as John Briggs eloquently stated, admit there may be a problem and work with us all to figure out the right course of action.
I agree with others that the correct thing for you to do is to offer:
“no banker nation” rule for grudge games as an option
"both 1650 pickup games with and without the “no banker nation” rule.
If you find it hard to fill FP teams for the pickup or grudge games where it’s allowed, then there is an interesting message. if it’s not hard, that’s also a message.
But the first step in any 12 step program is admitting there is a problem…
Cripes already, do the bloody test then come back with a clear head and some real perspective. The rest of us know what there is to know, please stay out of the conversation until you’ve done so.
Treat it the same way that you treat “bug hunts” let each match up decide for themselves whether they will nation banker or not. If it turns out to not be enough…address it further in the future.
There has been a lot of talk about the so called “Banker Exploit” by the DS being an unfair game edge (and I agree its helps a DS team a lot). But I’m starting to see Clint’s point here. Let’s take a look at the flip side of this coin. Free People teams have been doing the reverse of this in near to every game. It is not seen as an exploit when the FP tries and crashes/breaks the market and makes all products worthless. Most have played DS games where the Market was broke and everyone knows its no fun. It also huge affects the DS chances of winning as they have but a fraction of the tax base of the FPs. If this tactic is so widely accepted by everyone then why is the DS attempting to raising the market not?
We need to consider that if rules are put in place to stop the one banker nation then rule should be put in place to stop the FP from breaking the market. Game changes (Code) as well as rules for teams to play by.
After seeing the effect in game 51 I have changed my view. Market prices on T#2 are le=8, br=17, st=23, mi=273, fo=2, ti=21, mo= 58. A market crashes due to limited amounts of gold in peoples reserves. This limits the free as much as the DS. You have to limit your recruiting, it is hard to name characters if you are being stolen from.
There is no problem with being able to drive a product price up and Grudge team Aussie have perfected a price spike on any product at any time (and how to stop one from occurring) in a normal market. This is no longer a normal market as you cannot sell enough product to generate a negative impact. Sales are limited to about 30K so with st in this game you need only 1300 to hit the 30K limit. that is only 13000 dumped back onthe market if every nation sells it. With the amount of gold in the “Bank” this will probably 1/2 the price to about 11, meanwhile the rest of the market is out of control.
As has been pointed out this is a massive benifit to the DS who can now throw armies about at will in the early game (Where the free had the initial advantage and have to do enough damage to hinder the DS before their characters are up to speed) They now have no financial constraints and can upgrade pops at will and match the free on the troops front. The advantage is all one way and the disadvantage all the other. There is really no gain for the free at all. (except for the ability to move your capital at will)
Just wanted to check something… are you ok with the Aussie grudge team mastery of price-spiking? You seem to be… which kind of surprises me as the rest of your post seems to argue the importance of the “economic tension” underwhich DS normally have to operate.
I mostly agree that the “economic tension” has and should be an important part of the game… so I’d kind of see the Master Aussies manipulation as similar in effect to the “banker exploit” ??
No the price spike can be stopped and to get a price spike requires clearing the market of a commodity. Hard to organise, costly and can fail if the oposition manage to dump the right product. It takes a lot of effort and coordination. Lots of effort for a 1-2 turn gain in price of 1 commodity.
The Banker requires a one off 948 to one nation of the majority of your spare cash T0. Easy to organise, and has a huge impact on the whole market. A few follow top ups as the game goes on and you have a licence to print money. Easy to organise, has a MASSIVE effect and lasts for the length of the game.
Hey dude, remember all all happened T0-1 with ds gold reserves. Other sacrifices were made. Lets just say that grudge provides a level of ‘team’ work otherwise not seen. Also remember the troops that died T1-2. There is more here than the banker ds nation. I will state however that the abilty to get the market rise does allow more flexibility in thinking and priorities to change
Adrian
PS first time ever been involved in this concept. I think differently than most it seems. I agree with the comments on freep market crashing and product buyouts as both. I feel that if the freep market crashing is allowed then boosting the market should also be allowed. I been many times on both sides of the crashed market and the advantage to the freeps is enormous. The high market raises all economies, the freep can also upgrade, fortify, hire armies, ignore stealing and stop bailing out the woodies
