Well, Din, I don't know how we ended up talking past each other but I
think we're mostly in agreemennt on some of the issues. So
considerable snippage will follow as I veer off on a new tangent.
--- In mepbmlist@y..., Din <din_ohtar@y...> wrote:
--- Michael Martinez <michael@x...> wrote: >
> And, of course, a lot of people focus on the
> Elf-Dwarf thing as an example of racism, although it's never
explained in
> The Lord of the Rings (in fact, we can't be entirely sure it's
ever
> explained at all, although a passage in The Peoples of Middle-
earth
> may be the explanation).
It has been explain
a) the dwarves and the elven fought a large battle
against each other in the first age. The dwarves claim
the elves cheated them (and they were right). So they
raised an army and sacked an elven kingdom. The elves
then destroyed the dwarven army on the way back.
Well, this has been the stock answer for many years, but Tolkien
doesn't just come out and say so. And, in fact, with the publication
of either The Peoples of Middle-earth or The War of the Jewels, it
turns out the real problem lay farther back.
There is only one statement in the entire Lord of the Rings about any
racial problems between Elves and Dwarves. People look at all the
attention given to Legolas and Gimli and to Gandalf's comment about
grievances between Elves and Dwarves at the Council of Elrond and
they infer that there must be some real issues.
In fact, there was really only ever one issue between ALL Elves and
ALL Dwarves, and it was eseentially an issue for the Dwarves but not
for the Elves.
Keep in mind that throughout most of their history, the Elves and
Dwarves were usually allied in some capacity. Friendship between the
two races was the norm, not the exception. Close, warm friendshp was
the exception. So the close, warm friendship between Legolas and
Gimli, represented I think by the deep mutual respect they held for
one another as individuals, was especially unusual. Elves and
Dwarves could be friendly, civil, and allied without being buddy-
buddy.
So, what was the problem?
In one of the appendices to LoTR, Tolkien makes the almost off-hand
comment that the Dwarves' ancient grudge smoldered in the Third Age.
He never bothered to explain what the ancient grudge was. It is only
hinted at in The Silmarillion.
But it's explained in HOME. That is, the Dwarves resented the fact
that the Sindar used to hunt the Petty-Dwarves like animals. The
Petty-Dwarves may have been outcasts, but they were still Dwarves.
The resentment appears to have been universally held by the Dwarves.
But they realized they had to put their differences aside and work
with the Elves.
Now, there is no need to go digging for problems between Elves and
Dwarves in Doriath or Lorien. The war with Doriath was never fully
worked out by JRRT (you can pretty much ignore what was written
in "Of the Ruin of Doriath" in The Silmarillion). And although
Lorien banned Dwarves for many years, none of the Elves, not even
Celeborn, expressed any particular dislike for Dwarves. Nor did
Gimli ever express any dislike for Elves.
Occasional spats were going to happen, but there was nothing on a
racial scale, except for the resentment that Tolkien said all Dwarves
felt concerning the hunting of the Petty-Dwarves (who eventually died
out).
c) its claimed by implication that the dwarves fought
on morgoth's side in the last battle. I disagree, and
I feel some dwarves didn't fight on the elven side.
I'm not aware of any passage which states that Dwarves were accused
of fighting for Morgoth. However, in "Of the Rings of Power and the
Third Age" Tolkien wrote that, at the time of the War of the Last
Alliance, all things were divided, except the Elves. He also says
that few Dwarves fought on either side.
The passage clearly implies that some Dwarves fought for Sauron.
However, this would not be a cause for some ancient Dwarven grudge
against the Elves.
> There I quote Tolkien from Letter 131:
>
> "The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the
> prevention or slowing of decay (i.e., 'change' viewed as a
> regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved,
or its
> semblance -- this is more or less an Elvish motive.
I don't understand who gave the dwarves their rings.
They didn't share the same ideas as the elves.
Sauron took the Seven and the Nine from the Elves, returned to
Mordor, perverted them, and then contrived to give them to the
Dwarves and Men. That much is stated in "Of the Rings of Power and
the Third Age".
> So, that is straight from Tolkien himself. Like I
> said, you have to read the Letters to understand the full score
on the
> Rings of Power.
I agree with that. What's the point ?
The point of my citation? To show that all the Rings (except the
One) were Elven Rings, although they had some distinctions.
The point of my essay was to argue that the Elves had a lot to answer
for. Gildor seems to be weighted down with unexplained guilt when
Frodo talks to him in the Shire. That guilt is never explained, but
Gildor was apparently doing the responsible thing and helping set
matters right (at least as much as he could without getting further
involved).
> Yes, but had the Elves of Eregion not made the Rings
> of Power, there would have been no Rings of Power. Hence, Sauron
> would not have been the Lord of the Rings (something more than he
was as
> merely Sauron), and there would have been no wars fought over the
> Rings of Power.sauron would still have fought.
Without the One Ring, which he would not have made if his plan had
failed. If we assume that the War of the Elves and Sauron would have
resulted over some other cause, and that Sauron would eventually have
been taken to Numenor, he might still have accomplished a lot there.
But if he HAD achieved the complete destruction of Numenor, he not
only would have gone down with it, he would not have recovered.
Sauron was able to come back from death twice because the One Ring
stored most of his strength.
So who started the talk about landing on the undying
lands ?
I pointed out that the Numenoreans' invasion of Aman was a greater
act of evil than anything committed by the Orcs.
Anyway, hopefully I've shortened this. I'm trying to shoren it. 