Here we agree again Drew…
Brad
Actually, I’m pretty sure I recall undeclared neuts coming in #2 or #3 a lot, sometimes with more VPs than the allegiance winner. You had to be on the winning side to come in #1, but #2 or #3, you could come from the other allegience or undeclared neut. Might be yet another instance of the rule book being unclear.
We probably would agree on a lot more things than disagree if given the chance, but you’re just so much fun to disagree with…
Well then, hopefully we’ll be on the same…er…Allegiance…in this next game… 
I’ll play if Ed agrees to play.
So Ed hints us at the possibility that achiving VCs could have certain benefits. As Dave, I don’t think thats true, but neither am I in a position to rule this out completely.
If they have those benefits, then they are not THAT useless, agreed. But even if that was the case, this is no argument against teamplay. Au contraire. The question if VCs have hidden benefits could be tested best in a team environment. If the Dwarves have to kill Pelendur, I think Cardolan has no objections replacing him with a C 40, and most non-capital pop centers could be swapped within a team without the smallest problem - much easier than doing that behind the backs of your allies. Sorry to turn that argument against you Ed - but it has no value against teamplay. BTW I would politely ask everyone to leave the word “fascist” out of this discussion. Is a good football team fascistic, because the players strive for the common goal of winning? A selfish forward will try to score even if he is in a worse position than his team mate for the chance of making the goal and getting the attention of his coach. A good player will pass the ball for the safe hit. What is better for winning the game?
I do not say that the new scenario won’t be interesting to play. Sign me up for it 
But Drew: are you sure you want to write 14 Diplos each turn? I know certain players who’d get into serious time issues if we tried that, so I propose we limit that to one. Yeah, one diplo per turn - you would have to very carefully decide about that…
No limits on the diplo’s beyond only 1 per nation/turn - since they go out with the turns… Nobody has to, and I guarantee, nobody will…
Bernd,
You wouldn’t have to write any diplos, if you didn’t want to. Or, you could send the exact same diplo to your immediate neighbors, another to that grouping over there, etc. But I think you need the capability to send individually crafted diplos to each nation if you want to.
Apologies for throwing around the word fascist so casually; my intentions were not to raise the ire of anyone by doing so.
Drew
No problem for me, I usually have enough slow hours at my office to intricately flesh out every single one of those 14, but I thought it would severely reduce the chance of Dave joining this game, which I would find tragic.
Well Bernd, if Ed joins, causing Drew to join and you join and Brad joins and HolyAvenger (Terry?) joins, then I gotta join. But before I am for sure “in”, I want to cement the rules, or have Clint cement the rules. If Clint doesn’t assume rule-meister responsibility, I’ll re-post the rules Friday with everyone’s newest suggestions incorporated. I would especially like it if Ed were to comment on the proposed rules as the genesis for this game idea is Ed and I’d like to play in the game with him and if he were to make suggestions to the rules, that’d be very cool.
Dave
LOL, okay… 
We’re using the VCs in the Untold War game at present. We specifically tailored them to each nation though as we felt that an improvement to the overall game.
The team with the most Untold War Points after turn 10 wins the game. There are no individual victories.
Free Peoples
The following are each worth 100 Untold War Points.
The Northmen (2)
To hold at game end the population center of Helcaraxe @ 2203
To hold at game end the population center of Goblin-gate @ 2409
To hold at game end the population center of Lag-krazul @ 2812
To see to the termination of Nazog by any means whatsoever.
To hold at game end the artifact: Pectoral #157.
Riders of Rohan (3)
To hold at game end the population center of Durthang @3121
To hold at game end the population center of Arailt @1918
To hold at game end the population center of Bethadal @2512
To terminate 10 characters by personal challenge or by assassination.
To hold at game end the artifact: Glosovagil#162.
Silvan Elves (5)
To hold at game end the population center of Sarn Goriwing @2809
To hold at game end the population center of Snagarl @2815
To see to the termination of Duran by any means whatsoever.
To hold at game end the artifact: Ring of Bleeding #154.
To acquire 10 additional artifacts (15) of any alignment.
The Dwarves (8)
To hold at game end the population center of Yalumea @2404
To hold at game end the population center of Moria @2212
To hold at game end the population center of Goblin-town @2309
To hold in stores at game end the greatest amount of Mithril.
To hold at game end the artifact: Helm of Sen Hey #54.
The Noldo (10)
To hold at game end the population center of Lag-siif @2814
To hold at game end the population center of Dol Guldur @2715
To hold at game end the greatest amount of artifacts.
To terminate 10 characters by personal challenge or by assassination.
To hold at game end the artifact: Palantir of Minas Ithil #28.
Any Free People Nation
The following are worth 250 Untold War Points and each can be scored only once.
A Witch-King Major Town or City was captured or destroyed.
A Dragon Lord Major Town or City was captured or destroyed.
A Dog Lord Major Town or City was captured or destroyed.
A Fire King Major Town or City was captured or destroyed.
A White Wizard Major Town or City was captured or destroyed.
The following are worth 500 Untold War Points:
Dol Guldur (2715) was captured or destroyed at some point during the game.
All 5 Free nations survived.
Dark Servants
The following are each worth 100 Untold War Points.
The Witch King (11)
To hold at game end the population center of Imladris @2209
To see to the termination of Elrond by any means whatsoever.
To see to the termination of Ohtar by any means whatsoever.
To hold at game end the artifact: Mantel of Doriath #41.
To acquire 10 additional artifacts (20) of any alignment.
The Dragon Lord (12)
To hold at game end the population center of Lothlorien @2514
To hold at game end the population center of Aradhrynd @2908
To hold at game end the population center of Carrock @2609
To terminate 10 characters by personal challenge or by assassination.
To see to the termination of Thranduil by any means whatsoever.
To hold at game end the artifact: Mirror of Galadriel #163.
The Dog Lord (13)
To hold at game end the population center of Buhr Ailgra @3112
To hold at game end the population center of Erebor @3107
To see to the termination of Brand by any means whatsoever.
To hold in stores at game end the greatest amount of Mithril.
To hold at game end the artifact: Orcrist #83.
The Fire King (18)
To hold at game end the population center of Maethelberg @2508
To hold at game end the population center of Cerin Amroth @2413
To see to the termination of Grim-beorn by any means whatsoever.
To terminate 10 characters by personal challenge or by assassination.
To hold at game end the artifact: Orb of Seeing #35.
White Wizard (24)
To hold at game end the population center of Hornburg @2121
To hold at game end the population center of Edoras @2321
To hold at game end the greatest amount of artifacts.
To hold at game end the artifact: Nenya #12.
To acquire 10 additional artifacts (13) of any alignment.
Any Dark Servant Nation
The following are worth 250 Untold War Points and each can be scored only once.
A Northman Major Town or City was captured or destroyed. Hex location: _______
A Riders of Rohan Major Town or City was captured or destroyed. Hex location: _______
A Silvan Elves Major Town or City was captured or destroyed. Hex location: _______
A Dwarves Major Town or City was captured or destroyed. Hex location: _______
A Noldo Elves Major Town or City was captured or destroyed. Hex location: _______
The following are worth 500 Untold War Points:
Lothlorien (2514) was captured or destroyed at some point during the game.
All 5 Dark Servant nations survived.
Clint
Not sure what this Untold thing has to do with a 25 nation 1650 game played in a pioneer village setting sans internet…??
The only difference between The GSI ReRun PV game and a “regular” 1650 would be the acceptance of communication handicaps as outlined just about adequately to this point, I would hazard.
How about this - Dave write up the rules as they’ll appear on MEGames Front Sheet or Games Filling email, MEGames creates a game number and we all send our emails to sign up as per any other game. I have 1 guaranteed other player and 1 highly likely to boot. And rumour has it a 2 week 1650 grudge game is about to end, this might help facilitate extra sign-ups…?
Now, we’re likely to have to rely on the Honour System to assure each other that we are, in fact, not talking about this game. I’m up for it with my good friends in town with local phone calls an itch away. In the event this potential is considered too against the spirit of this particular game, I would have no issue with MEGames taking people they consider “friends” and putting them in opposing allegiances… 5 nation list has to have at least 2 of each Allegiance then…?
Brad
I like the Pioneer Village game…but we can name it after Ed if you like Dave…
I certainly can’t agree with that. I can be quite trying at times. You know, it’s people like you who really…oh, forget it… Clint! Can I be Drew’s neighbour…?
@Brad I don’t think we have a real issue with keeping the players from talking. GB is functioning like that and I think it works very well. For my part I would not waste time mistrusting my fellow players, if they violate the rules they spoil the game for themselves as much as for everybody else.
Funny thing though that we have to demand fair play in order to have the option to play “unfair”
Does sound very interesting and as Brad points out with a certain grudge game finishing unexpectedly I have more time on my hands…
Looking forward to seeing this get set up.
Jon
Drew, Dave, Brad, Bernard,etal: Yes I will play and Dave’s rules look good to me. Hopefully, Harley will not consider this Stassun/Feilds reto as a negative competition to their inhouse creation.
ok. i’ve changed to update for modifications that folks have suggested. note that neutrals can now be 2nd or 3rd as can nations on the side that didn’t “win”.
Game Title: The Alliance Game
Game Concept: “The difference between a ‘team’ and an ‘alliance’ is that on a team, members are expected to sacrifice for the commonweal while in an alliance national interest is always foremost. Anything else is a breach-of-duty by a public official.” Ed Mills
Like GB, except:
[ul]
[li]1650 standard scenario
[/li][li]limit is one nation per player. no exceptions.
[/li][li]10xDS, 10xFP, 5xN
[/li][li]each nation may send no more than one diplo to each other nation in the game, every turn, 50 words or less
[/li][li]diplos can include subterfuge, lies, etc. (e.g. a diplo can pretend to be from the IK, when it’s in fact from NG)
[/li][li]diplos can not reveal phone numbers, identity, email, or any contact information
[/li][li]diplos are restricted to in-game information & strategy
[/li][li]diplos could request help on attaining a VC
[/li][li]the game is anonymous as to who is playing what nation, but 25 players are known
[/li][li]First, Second and Third place finishers are determined by nation score plus Individual Nation VCs plus 200pt bonus for OR victory if you are nation who delivers OR to Mt Doom. First place finisher must be on the winning side. 2nd and 3rd place do not have to be on the winning side.
[/li][li]Game ends when one One Ring victory occurs or when one allegiance (DS,FP) outnumbers the other 2:1 in active nations or when 2/3 of players on one allegiance (DS,FP) concede (dead nations counting as a vote to concede)
[/li][li]there are no rules against taking any action against any character or nation
[/li][li]dropped nations die. they are not picked up by another player
[/li][li]there is no internet posting of information about the game (i.e. no dead nations list like in some of the GB games)
[/li][li]no .pdf or .xml sharing allowed
[/li][li]two week game cycle
[/li][/ul]
This might clear things up for those of you still not grasping the concept. Here is a section of an old article written by William B Feild Jr. & Peter Stassun that I ran across on the GSI website.
The tales of Tolkien dealt with more than just Good vs. Evil and so too, ME-PBM explores these other areas as well. Besides the primary issue of Good vs. Evil, the nations must deal with the treachery and conflict all too common even on their own side. The constant conflict between the Dwarves and Elves, the Civil War of Gondor, and the bickering between the various armies and leaders of darkness to name just a few. These aspects of Middle-earth were included by allowing for one side to end the game, but only the most powerful nation(s) on the winning side to claim victory. Furthermore, each nation has individual goals that help them toward becoming the most powerful nation on their respective side, and many of these individual goals must only be achieved at the expense of nations on their own side.
[my emphasis added]
Link to the full article:
Nice Drew! thanks for doing the research. This is the concept behind the Alliance Game. Maybe you should cross post it to the thread announcing the Alliance Game?