Should ME Games Publish the Equations?

game mechanics and rules should be transparent, while the details should be mysterious.

Should’a would’a could’a.

The details are not mysterious. That’s an entirely different conversation that has been ongoing elsewhere in various forms.

So, if the goal is a utopian ideal of transparent mechanics and mysterious details, it’s already not possible. Any “new” mysterious details will simply become commonly known information asap. No “people should” type comments please, people ‘should’ be polite, love their fellow man, etc. The reality is that human behavior is what it is, look for practicle solutions not pie in the sky pipe dreams.

So, if that’s the goal and, like eternal youth and unassisted human flying, isn’t possible on Earth, then it’s time to reassess the goal.

How do you reward the people who put in hours/weeks/months of intensive work studying and crunching this information? The people who develop these forumla did so in order to Learn such that they are Better than the others such that they will Prevail. Why do people study and train and read and Learn in the Real World? To get higher paying jobs than people who quit school to go drinking. Why should the lazy laggards consider it their right to have access to the same benefits this information provides than those who put in their time and money?

On the one hand, if the providers of the game provided this information as part of their game package, then the mechanics are transparent. As the providers of the game have NOT provided this information, then maybe, (Ed’s cheering in the nose-bleed bleachers over there…) it’s part of the game to either put in the time/dime to place yourself in a position to dominate over those who couldn’t bother… Effort is supposedly rewarded.

Which brings me to my Order Companion project… Do I make it publically available once it’s updated and significantly added to, or do I keep it “secret” and only distribute amongst those who contributed…?

Brad Brunet

By all means, Brad, retain it unpublished. There is such a massive amount of information out there that (how can I put this nicely?) normal people of average intelligence are frightened off by its volume. You want to hurt newbies? Give them one more volume to read.

The fact that the official formulas are not published is exactly WHY there is SO much information flying around. There are 50 pet theories on nearly every topic… Some outdated and now believed wrong. Some new and as yet untested.

Rewrite the rule book from “Chance of success is based on agent rank, pop loyalty, and relations” to “Chance of success is 2X agent rank - loyalty - standard relations adjustment” and the 200 opinions on the subject vanish into thin air. You’re left with “the rules” instead of “the rules”, 50 web articles, and 200 disagreeing emails from teammates.

If this is in reference the PersChall example, credit goes to Shimel. He has much more patience than I to explain in precise detail what has been pointed out since the first entries of this thread in such a way that no one can misunderstand.

By " mysterious details" I think you mean details of the game world. I can only guess that Brad misunderstood by thinking that you meant details of the game rules–which I agree WOULD be unpractical. Writers on this thread have presented a few PRACTICAL (though debatable) solutions towards restoring the fog-of-war/mystery in context of the game world. It is not an impossibility though there is much to discuss on how it should be done.

I didn’t misunderstand a thing, I thought I was quite clear, in fact. The fog of war was such that Revealing but not Unhiding a Hidden Pop was a “eureka!” kind of result… That’s never coming back, it’s been smashed into smitherines (sp?)…

There are no real mysteries in the game world. All the mysteries that remain are in the actual program itself - the Code.

My point was that:

If you take the time and effort to understand how the game works, you have an edge on those who either 1) are new to the game, or, 2) don’t bother.

If you take this time and effort, you expect to be rewarded. If I work overtime, I expect to be renumerated for it. If I study for 12 years, I expect my “ground floor” to be much higher than that available to high-school drop outs.

The game was intentionally designed to be mysterious in it’s workings. Harlequin, now Middle Earth Games,does many things, but as far as the inner workings of the Code are concerned, DITCOP (Discovered In The Course Of Play) still mostly rules. “Here’s the game. Enjoy.” is the company line in regards to these questions.

Here are the results so far:

The code is not going to be revealed.
There are no ‘mysteries’ in the game world.

I read people saying that both of those “should” be different. I “should” be taller and better looking, doesn’t change a thing. I read people saying “there are ways to create mysteries in the game world”. I challenge those people to start a Mysteries in the Game World thread and submit some, or do some work and submit some ideas to Clint. There are others who are simply troubled by the disparity of information out there. I challenge them to do something about, else keep their peace.

Brad Brunet

Hello Brad.

You can have new or relocated hidden pop centers. You can set SOME pop centers slightly off, by one hex, of their present position (credit to Muller). Other pop centers cannot be moved without ruining Tolkien or changing the map–and you are right with regard to those, but only those. There are practical solutions.

Exactly. But we can change this. It is OUR game. Me Games owns the license but we own Me Games (not literally of course).

Will this be different if the rulebook is revised in the way we have requested? One must still take the time to master what is very complex and difficult to master. Category 2 still won’t bother as you’ve pointed out before. People who work to understand WILL be rewarded if they study the rules carefully. As it is, are these diligent folks not kinda penalized by having to do all the sleuth work?

You are right. One should expect to be rewared fo rereading the rulebook very carefully, however, one should not expect MEPBM rules research to become a JOB. Aren’t we here to PLAY?

You are right. But as stated in various places on this thread by various writers, the design intent has been subverted.

ME Games has stated they do not have plans to revise the rules. Plans can change. ME Games listens to what players want–we have the power.

You have divined my intent! It should be fun. I do want a bit of break between this thread and the next though.

Christian

Which is why we have advocated a different game world in each game via partial customization and partial randomization. Exactly how that is to be done, and how to avoid pitfalls in the doing, is for another thread.

Cheers,
Christian

Brad,

You wrote: Quote: There are others who are simply troubled by the disparity of information out there. I challenge them to do something about, else keep their peace."

I would love to help with that, as I am one who is complaining. However, I believe that I personally would have very little to offer to help improve any disparities. :confused:

Basically, I’m unsure what help I could offer any project to gather clarity information, largely because I don’t know if I have anything that would aid in the effort. However, I am willing to contribute. Please advise on how a newbie like me can contribute, and I will do so if I can. :slight_smile:

Thanks to all for an enjoyable and engaging discussion.

James

Which is why we have advocated a different game world in each game via partial customization and partial randomization. Exactly how that is to be done, and how to avoid pitfalls in the doing, is for another forum.

Kin Strife should be that. We’re working on the map at present.

Clint

James,

Have you asked me for a copy of the Order Companion? Take a look. You don’t think you can contribute? That likely means, to me at least, that you can. Consider, ever been on a team with experienced vets who’ve talked a lot? (even a little…) Between things you’ve forgotten you know and things you might have read on this forum, I can virtually guarantee you that upon reading the OC you’ll have a little light-bulb go “Ding!” over some issue or other. When you do, send THAT to me also. No contribution is too small, even if it’s ultimate purpose is to clarify things for both of us (all of us who end up using the document), it’ll be a worthwhile exercise.

Brad

Brad,

Ok, sounds good. Please send me a copy and I’m happy to take a look. You can email me one at faramir1968@yahoo.com. I think I saw part of this in the News/Bree, and if it is what I remember, then I said to myself “I need to get the rest of this thing…”, but then the real world caught up to me and I forgot about it. Please do send me one.

Thanks for the opportunity,

James

After some reflection i decided I should apologize to anyone on his thread that I might have taken a “tone” with. If the points I was trying to make were indeed as simple I thought they were, then my frustration at being misunderstood on simple points can reasonably be blamed on my inablity to make such points clear, since the other side must be assumed to have read what was written and to have the intelligence to understand what is simple! I should take debate lessons from Shimel.

It may also be worth mentoning that I’ve realized there is some merit to the argument that “we earned it and so should others” that I previously dismissed with a disgusted wave the hand as being both a non-sequiter and based on self-contradictory premise. The 'we earned it" argument also has a logical connexion, that I didn’t see before, to the “dumbing down” and “discovery” arguments made by my opponents. (Side remark: incidently these realizations are NOT the cause of the above apology). I will write again, revising my position to a more MODERATE ground between the two sides of this debate and will share my reasons why.


Other stuff:

The Kin Strife sounds pretty cool. I hope the upcoming Mysteries thread will be useful in its design.

I wonder how much the Source Book and the New Order Companion will overlap?
Clint Would you mind describing again what the Source Book will include?

Clint Would you mind describing again what the Source Book will include?

Basically the entire set of rulebooks/modules some links between appropriate orders and so on. Hard to explain, easier to just show when we’re finished.

Clint