>RD: no, I didn't say "Civilised 'em." What I am saying is, there was no
>such entity as an Irish nation until the British government gave
>independence to Eire. For hundreds of years before then, Ireland had
been
>under British rule (some would say oppression). Before that, Ireland was
a
>collection of tribes perpetually at war with each other, which
facilitated
>invasions first by vikings, then Normans, and finally by Brits (not only
>English but Scots and Welsh as well). Simple historic fact.
Never any such thing as a simple historical fact. The Welsh never (or
perhaps once, arguably) were united as a single people, nor were the
Native
Americans, but that still doesn't mean they appreciated being
conquered. Your inference was that bickering peoples got what they
deserved. It's Imperialism. If Luxembourg suddenly annexed UK and USA,
then by your argument, they could override our objections by saying - oh
well they were always arguing, just look at those guys on the MEPBM
list. Now they're part of Greater Luxembourg. All's well.
Laurence G. Tilley
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
RD: Rubbish. I wouldn't normally answer such a blatant misinterpretation
of what I wrote, but purely by chance, I have nothing better to write about
at the moment, so here goes.
There ARE simple historic facts.
1) 11thc Norman conquest of England.
2) 20thc Britain grants independence to Eire.
It -is - simple historic fact that there was no such thing as an "Irish
nation" b4 Britain gave independence to Eire. There were 4-5 Irish
provinces perpetually fighting amongst themselves despite the presence of a
nominal High King in Tara. They continued to fight amongst themselves even
when invaded by vikings, Normans and Brits. It is quite possible that had
the Irish tribes united they would have seen off all invaders BUT all I am
saying is what happened in history.
I'm not saying what the vikings, Normans and Brits did to the Irish was
right was right. If you want to get into such an obscure argument, Irish
warbands had been raiding mainland Britain from the time of the Roman
occupation up till the time the tables were turned, so you -could- argue
that the Irish got what they deserved. But that's not what I was saying.
All I said was, there was no such thing as an Irish nation until the British
granted independence to Eire. No judgements, no saying they deserved it,
just a dry historical FACT - a date, an event. End of story.
Please stop deliberately misinterpreting what I write. Actually, no don't,
otherwise we'll have nothing to argue about!
Richard.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: Laurence G. Tilley <laurence@lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>; <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:28 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Off Topic: Who is the greatest nation? Ireland?
At 02:37 PM 24-11-01, richard devereux wrote:
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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