This option is only available in Grudge games. So Dunland is already Free. I don’t agree at all that this really favors the DS a lot more than the Free. You can only assign 10 points per character. This is not enough to make any character a super character. Assign it to a Dun agent and a couple of guarding orders means it is then possible to name all future agents at 40. Just giving it to the DS characters mentioned in the previous post doesn’t necessarily work as between their artifacts being tracked and their likelihood to stand out in a crowd stealth does not help them all that much. The Witch King cannot name enough agent power no matter how you allocate the bonus to counter what the nations surround him can do. So I believe Darrel is correct, if you are the Witch King you trust that your allies will provide the needed agent help. Perhaps the Witch King is better served by increasing his emissary strength so new camps offset the losses of original pops; or in more commanders or mages. Agents that the WK can name will not redress the balance in the west.
In our current game 18 the Free refused to allow the additional points. In our last game we played the Free and the additional points did allow more significant agent action later in the game for the Free. It also allowed us to have some other characters that turned the tide. Lewis Morton’s team allowed the points which some have posted should favor the DS but it did not play that way and we defeated the DS.
The option of being able to assign the points does allow you to tailor your nation somewhat and I liked that. How those points are assigned though makes the real difference; it does not always favor one side or the other.
No, I don’t think GSI did that then. I was reading about them here, they sound like very interesting games. I like the way the nations are split–that strikes me as perfect.
Like you I enjoy the military aspect as well, but in grudge games have found that if I concentrated solely on military with no concern for the agent front I wouldn’t have any armies or commanders far too quickly. If Durkarian, Angulion and Dancu were my only agents, it would seem sitting up there with the Noldo, Sinda, Woodman, Duns and even Cardolan cranking out agents, that by about turn ten I wouldn’t have any armies, fortifications, gold…and in short order no Angmar.
It would kinda be like playing Gondor, it would just take a little longer. Or maybe not that long, if the RoW or RoC happened to fall into the Noldo or Sinda’s hands early. In an individual game they might be out looking for mage artifacts or whatnot, but I’d think in a team game they’d concentrate on agents and sharpen their claws on the Captain of Despair as he’s kind of a target of conveniance for them.
Maybe I just played North Gonder too many times and became eternally gunshy of not having enough agents. In one game I had something like eight commanders in dungeons by about turn ten. :eek:
I think what you are not considering here is that in a Grudge game you are not on your own. You have 11 players who signed on as a team. Your agent support will be in the form of agents sent to you by allies able to create far superior agents than you can. Your nation selects characters based on what it is best suited to developing for the team. In the Witch King’s case why use your character slots to name agents when the thing that you do best is mage and commander actions. Leave agent support to the Ice King, Quiet Avenger and Cloud Lord. Some nations have double scouting ability naming agents by them helps the team. QA and DrLd are such nations. Others can build killers faster such as the Cloud Lord and Ice King. If two or three of those characters arrive in the west they can blunt the Free troop advantage. Cardolan is not going to be naming agents they get no bonus to do so. Arthedain needs commanders to deal with your armies. Any agents these two name early on will be several turns in development perhaps by then you will have done your damage. Grudge/Team games are completely different than standard games. If you play in one you have to change and adapt your strategy from the other.
I grant you that, and indeed I would probably improve Angulion to a 40 emissary myself, I was wondering if having [/i]no[/i] additional agents outside the first three would in fact be wise?
Perhaps you were just better than they were?
While it certainly would help the free to some extent, it seems to me it would help the DS more as they have all that stealth being wasted on non-agents to start that would no longer be. I got the impression there were two variants, one with ten points, one with twenty. While it’s nice with the twenty-pointer the Duns could get Aonghas or Raonull up to 40 by guarding for a few turns, they can basically do that anyway it just costs 5k more gold and one more turn.
I might be totally off base here, as much of my info on this game is at minimum seven years old and most of it twice that so I’m rusty as hell, but I thought it wasn’t just the less likelihood of being seen that made stealth so valuable, it was the automatic bonus it provided to agent actions. Perhaps I was lulled into believing an urban legend about the game, but it was my understanding that a good rule of thumb was roughly half your stealth added to your agent rank would be your effective agent rank. It seemed toi work that way for me. Thus for a character with 30 stealth that’s almost like having the Cloud Lord’s +20 to kidnap/assassination. Mind you it would take a little while to make use of them even if they started at twenty, but after a few turns guarding and a few turns stealing from an ally and you’d be able to take out mid-grade army commanders.
Earlier in the thread someone noted that Gauhir assassinated an Eothraim commander on turn two when he started with a 30 agent skill rank. It doesn’t take long to acquire that if you start with 30 stealth. I know I just loved it when my Fire King set up gave Ren ten points in agent skill for the bonus distibution skill. I had a competant assassin the instant that silly little agent South Gondor had wearing the RoI forgot to refuse personal challenge at Osgilliath. It gave my Fire King position a lot more options.
I’m not really disagreeing with you…we both feel that naming agents early with the WK is not in your best interests. It’s possible that later on in the game the WK may want to name a few agents to help with his costs.
Keep in mind that we are debating whether you want +10 agent on Ulrac or +10 agent on Angulion. Putting the +10 on Angulion gives you some opportunity to name A30’s down the line…putting it on Ulrac gets you escape potential that might come up only very rarely.
Not exactly an earth shaking strategic difference putting the +10 on one or the other eh?
+10E on Ashdubuk or Rogrog might also make sense so they can boost loyalties etc.
No one is saying…put +10A on angulion so you can name only A30’s for the entire game. :eek:
I understand your point, however unless things have drastically changed since I played last, eight of those nations are in Mordor or Harad and often tend to be convinced their theater is the most important. Whatever promises they make before the game starts, inevitably if the Gondorians start pouring through the Pass they’ll often decide they can’t spare agent support until it might just be too late for poor Angmar and Rhudaur. A fair number of players I knew were convinced it really didn’t matter in the scheme of things if the Witch-King and Dragon Lord went down, as long as Gondor was crushed. Some kinda treated them as natural casualties.
I too prefer to concentrate character slots on approriate SNAs as well, (BTW doesn’t Cardolan get a +20 to scouting?) however there are ways of reducing the orders deficit on the Witch King with either the Fire King (who might be needing a MT soon into the game anyway) or even better the Blind Sorcerer who can easily spare 200 points in mages and a commander which would allow him to recruit 700 HIE a turn (heavy infantry equivelant) out of Gungabad/Gram if the WK improved it to a city before turning it over to the Blind Sorcerer. The extra 200 come from the 1000 MAA they can conjure per turn.
While by and large I have to agree it’s far better to have the Cloud Lord dedicating slots to agents and it seems like kind of a waste for the Witch king to do so, if you were playing the WK wouldn’t you kinda want one at least to impede Elladan with the RoW when he’s massacring your commanders wholesale and disbanding your armies? If the Cloud Lord keeps saying he’ll send one up ‘next turn’ two or three turns in a row you might kinda wish you did…
Can’t really discuss what agents can go where as our game is currently in progress. Our opponents assaulted the Ithil Pass and Morannon approach aggressively and indeed early in the game most of our agent strength was expended there. We were still able to send Din Ohtar and a couple of others to the West. In a grudge game you have a captain and that captain can insist that you send certain assets to where they are needed even if you would not do it on your own initiative. Hopefully however in the coordination everyone comes to the realization of where the priority is. It is a hard decision, you cannot have agents everywhere so you really do have to make some hard decisions.
As far as Elladan goes, I played the Noldo and put 10 of my points on him. He eventually got an agent artifact as well. You can only put the points on a starting character and even with the points all your appointed Witch King agent is going to do is likely get himself killed while performing his guard mission, then Elladan augmented by RoW kills his target as well. The chances for death of the guarding agent when he attempts to foil the high ranking assassin are such that I find it nearly useless for that low ranking agent to guard, unless he knows there is no threat. We ended up defeating the Witch King the old fashioned way, with troops flooding into his territory.
Another Darrel was on that team as well. I think that is why he is in his discussion with Clint about WK agents. They might be helpful but then again my feeling is that there are a lot of things the WK needs that probably take precedence. It is precisely those decision points that make this game interesting to me.
I understand your point, however I’m suggesting that if the Gate and the Pass are under heavy assault, inevitably that team captain isn’t gonna take the chance of seeing all those vulnerable unfortified major towns just inside Mordor torched, thus it’s not impossible the Witch King will be left to twist in the wind. In those circumstances perhaps him taking some precautions wouldn’t be such a bad idea?
I’m only too familiar with that paradigm, I think perhaps I ended up with North Gondor too many times.
You’re right, of course, once those agents get effectively over a hundred you’ve got to have one hell of an agent guarding or your just going to give him two for the price of one. However, consider this scenario: let’s say Dancu starts commanding your capitol army. If you put ten points there and then named a new agent as one of your first four characters you’d have a 60-30 command agent, a 30 point agent, a 50-10-10 CAE in Durkarian and Angulion, the 10-20-30-30. Now Elladan isn’t going to have his artifact immediately, and even with the ten points is still merely a 30 agent with 25 stealth which isn’t in my experience enough to take out a guarded commander right away. If you guard for a few turns with your new agent and then raise relations with the Dragon Lord and start ‘stealing’ from his camp on that great north road you’ll be up to fifty in no time. By now Elladan might have his artifact, but he’s still no guarantee against a 50 agent and might even get captured and lose that shiny little toy when you mount his head upon a pike outside the tent of the commander he was trying to get frisky with. Now you might have the best agent in the Northwest, and Dancu is probably a respectable one as well, if you use him to recruit and guard those turns as well.
Same to me, I’m not saying I’d necessarily do it but it’s an interesting thing to discuss and I’m starved for strategy talk about ME-PBM as there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of it currently on the site, no doubt for security reasons due to players all being in games and I’m not yet.
I might be trying to convince you I’m an utter fool so if you’re in my game you’ll underestimate me.
I did play some twenty games starting a little before you according to your profile (was once in eight at one time–won’t be doing that again though!) and I’m quite familiar with grudge matches being as our team never got beat playing the Dark Servants or even the Free and this was back when the Free virtually never won grudge games. In fact we were told by a player on the DS team we beat we were the first to do it.
Dunno if that was actually the case as information wasn’t nearly as readily available as it is these days, but I do know that abandoning Minas Ithil and even blowing the bridges (and thus using the navies to ferry) was standard FP strategy before we took everything and shoved it down the Pass the first turns of the game and torched the innards of Mordor knocking out the Fire King, Ice King and Cloud Lord in about five or six turns–the latter due to bankruptcy as we emptied his coffers the turn we burned all those unfortified towns–boy was it satisfying to knock out the CL by stealing..
I guess now we were just lucky as we didn’t get mired in the pass, but at the time I thought we’d discovered you could use the Force March order to guarantee movement initiative if they just tried to ‘Move Army’ but from reading here and elsewhere lately I guess it’s just a roll of the die as it seems people are convinced that is no guarantee. Boy did I ever get lucky though, I musta tried that a half-dozen times and the only time it failed I was certain my opponant had tried the same thing as he was a member of our team playing against me in another game. BTW I was the captain of that team and developed that strategy. I like considering possible strategies others dismiss initially–I’ve found sometimes they work.
Sorry, didn’t mean to sound like an egomaniac though. I’m sure so much has been discovered and new strategies developed (I read a couple things that indicated the Long Rider going into Mordor the initial turns instead of raping the Northmen has become a common strategy–never saw that in my day) since that I’m woefully out of date and a mere padawan again.
Yes I played when GSI ran the game and you were feeling your way round. The intelligence picture is much more clear now thanks to internet exchange of turn information. It is simply because there are so many ways to skin a cat in this game that it is interesting and that there is a chance to out think or fool your opposition. Your points are valid for the Witch King of course. However let’s say for example Elladan stops by and steals on his way to targets and ups his agent rank to around 45 or 50 and add in his stealth. Now I am sure you will either have him scout for characters coming in or have talked the Woodmen or Duns into scouting for characters for you with their double scouting SNA. You pick up Dancu and his guard. Now by virtue of the fact that the guard is indeed guarding Dancu he isn’t scouting. So if Dancu’s army is in the field and not at a WK population center they have no idea you are there. The Guard cannot kill himself so you whack the guard. Your ability goes up and since you can see Dancu’s army icon he is easy enough to track. If Arthedain stops his army and you have coordinated you arrive on the scene, they fight a battle perhaps Dancu’s army is destroyed if so he is now more vulnerable. He still cannot guard himself so you take your shot. Or if your Arthedain ally has destroyed the army or is fairly sure he will you don’t even need to go after Dancu. You raid Mt Gram instead or something like that. Those big powerful commanders really are at their best with troops and the Guards are usually the easiest victims, at least that has been my experience. Then again there are lots of ways of playing this and in grudge match things are so different from the old days as Ed laments. Interesting discussion.
Actually, Brad, I started playing in '92, the games were still in double-digits when I first signed up. I didn’t mean to imply I was any better than you as obviously you’ve some ten or so years on me if you’ve been playing regularily in the interim, but I do have that one year ere you began.
I had no intention of starting a pissing contest though, from lurking here the last month or so I’ve found yours to be some of the best posts on this site, I just found it kinda funny you assumed I didn’t know what a grudge game was or how they work.
Hrm, outside the threat possibility, I’ve found the difference between a forty commander and a sixty in the field is about 2.5% offense, but the difference between his chances of getting through a crucial capitol command order is from probably, to almost certainly, thus I would have Dancu transfer command and be the back-up and recruit when I didn’t need him downgrading relations or somesuch, with a blank forty Commander training him and recruiting when I needed Dancu for a command order. If I needed a block, command would be transferred to Dancu and he could pull off the evasive movement order and slip back into Carn Dum, thus I would keep him there and not have him commanding an army in the field initially. I find I need the evasive movement capability in Angmar generally, and when I’m done Dancu is at least a 70-50 and one hell of a dangerous character and a SOB to kidnap/assassinate–especially if guarded.
I’ve also had exceptional good fortune with higher commanders ‘lurking’ by being back-up commanders and especially in the field outside of pop centers (or inside my own) have disbanded many an army by a personal challenge my opponant wasn’t expecting as many don’t assume you might have better challenge rank backing up a forty commander you obviously recently created. I’m sure you wouldn’t fall for that naughty little trick, but I’ve often employed it as it works with many.
WK: I wouldn’t be naming Agents with the WK I think ever, I agree it’s possible though. If it can’t recruit then it’s not allowed… Should the WK get wiped out in the NW it can always provide company support and/or Ems as a long term game strategy. I find that useful. The Agent isn’t going to help against any decent enemy agents and means that you’ve got less back-ups for your armies and/or recruit stream.
I agree +10 either way is weak for the WK. That’s why the rating 2/5 - it doesn’t really help the WK to have the bonuses and probably penalises it relative to the FPs - heh hadn’t thought of that. The WK/Rh situation is actually weakened as it gives 2 commanders to the Ar/Card and potentially 2 to the Dunlendings. Um thanks for that moment of clarity. Ouch. I occasionally like to have a company commander for Murazor though if (as it likely) he’s part of the Curse squad.
I’ve played Rhudaur a few times now where it’s ended up winning in Mirkwood - you badly run out of commanders real quick! :bash: Well that’s my take on it anyway.
In a grudge game agent support would be organised as appropriate for any nation that needs it. Ditto economic support.
I stand corrected from your earlier posts it seemed that you were still looking at playing the WK as a stand alone nation. My posts were meant to illustrate that with the team concept in place in grudge games no nation stands alone. Well, at least they shouldn’t stand alone.
My first game was game 30 so we have probably been around about the same length of time. I have played pretty much continuously since starting but have never played the amount of games that you did. I rarely am in more than two games at the same time. Especially with the coordinating and staffing demands of the team game. So, you may have more games under your belt than I do.
My wife hates the team game concept and prefers that only one nation can win. I like the esprit de corps of the team game but also like the being on your own so I play a neutral in standard games from time to time.
Interesting discussion on agents. Even on our team we don’t always agree on who the victims should be or why. Having the synergy of everyone voicing their position and the captain to resolve issues that haven’t been agreed upon though has usually given our team a better over all strategy than any ot the original ones put forth. I think this Forum is often good for that too.
While it’s been quite awhile since I last played WK . I still believe WK has everything he needs to survive in Angmar… That agent support is not required early in game…
WK main job is similar to Dragonlord survival and try to become total self reliant and not a burden on Mordor… So he must be a military power which he is…
I don’t even see the need for com agents early in the game… He needs com’s and emmy’s I would say 2 30 com’s and 2 30 emmy’s… Yes and give pectoral to a 30 com… Agents do not defend his PC’s by the time they could WK will be elimnated. Wk needs to recruit from every pc he owns… To use his High challenge ranks guys as backups and pray he catchs someone asleep… His mages need to suuport his armies while learning curses…
Only on his second group of characters he can name if he can afford to would I get any agents then they would be 10/20 com agents…
Dargonlord is a terrible choice for an agent nation… In order for Dragonlord to become a character nation he must lose Both Goblin Gate and Dol Gudur… Until Dol Gudur falls he is military nation… After it falls he to crippled to even name any characters… I do believe though Dragonlord Should name 2 agents of the first four and the other 2 being emmy’s. Dragonlord like no other position need alll the emmy skill he can get…
As for the 10 skill for dragonlord characters I have several choices I like the options… 10 to Khamul either emmy or agent both has tons of upside… then 10 com to either Ordculax or Lhachglin … Lhachglin can hire an army on his Village… It might even allow it to be held a couple more turns… Ordculax could Join Goblin Gate army commander and recruit so Commander could train… It will not hold the PC but will help give Dwarves greater losses… That does help Dragonlords tough position…
For WK I would give the 10 com to his straight mage… For same reason for Dragonlord mage… Having a 10 com backup recruit and having the army com Train the troops and backup with one order is good… Then mage has another skill option… prentice mage or learn a new spell…
Dragonlord and WK are under way to much pressure to have effective agent killers… QA is much better choice for providing Scouts than Dragonlord even though I still recommend 2 by dragonlord one for steals and one for a scout… The Mordor Nations who armies do not have to be in as many places at once are much better suited for developing killers and can scout for the characters that are the DS teams prime targets the FP com’s …
By Both WK and Dragonlord concentrating on survival early in game give the DS team to develope more killers to support in that role in even Angmar… It’s simply hard enough to send from either WK or Dragonlord an artfiact chaser for RoW or Tinculin Much less develope an agent at the same time…
So how is having one guy with +10 agent going to help in the remotest way?
We are talking grudge game here. You don’t have time to build your characters up as they are fighting for survival the whole time.
