Thank you sir, you’ve been very helpful, 
Thats something that could be changed. Why and order needs to be used by a CE to move the map is beyond me. A bit of common sense would apply, i.e. Gms discretion. And its not even automatic.
Alan,
it’s a game mechanic like any other. GM discretion should be taken out of it in this type of thing. Let the program run with it’s probability models. that way whatever happens is “chance” and not the GM’s fault.
I think it’s cool that there’s a game mechanic to move the map. I bet it doesn’t get used nearly as often as is warranted. Sort of like building roads and such.
Dave
Okay looks like we’re going in the right direction here with all the bits and pieces for 1000. I think I agree, see how this develops and then look at updating it later on. Thanks for all the feedback (ironically the one player that voted against the changes never played 1000 and doesn’t play the game so that’s a tad strange… :rolleyes: )
Alan: Orders - the same argument could be made for any choice that is made in the game. All take an order (or leave out an order that you could have done). Isn’t that part of the game?
Clint
OK…sanity check. The excel spreadsheet is good, but has glitches. Can’t go into at the moment…currently in a game with Mike and we are not on the same team (yet?). He is an excel guru though…
I’ve taken to playing FA instead of 1650 as I enjoy the setup and the unplanned first turn ability. No one knows what anyone else is going to do. BUT, the set up is too tedious. The bonuses for region placement are interesting, but add to the confusion. So much so, that in a recent game, several nations had to have corrections made. With that said…ME was great (as usual) in correcting the mistakes, but someone not so versed in the game could have missed the problems and played on to their disadvantage.
I also think the restrictions on agents is too much. I played an agent nation in one of the first FA games…had 40 Agents, +20K/A and started with 3 60rank agents…my agents continuosly missed targets and were in fact captured or killed so many times it wasn’t even funny. In game 185 (I think that was the game) I had agents again and ran into exactly the same problems. In other games the agents of fellow teammates just seemed lack luster.
Now with that said…I don’t usually play agents…I don’t like playing agents and avoid that setup.
I think mages are still just too weak. Very little insentive to play mages or to even have one as an initial character.
I’d also like to see nations be able to start with more artifacts than they do.
And with THAT said…I still prefer FA.
Rollin
Ken had some points that I’d like to comment about
Another issue:
From what I see, the neutral team has a real advantage.
I disagree…if the DS and Free decide to just eliminate the neutral threat, then it is just a matter of time. I’ve done this in the past through heavy diplomatic negotiations once the neuts were determined to be aligning
and there is little incentive for the 2-5 “true neutrals” to switch sides (this assumes a 8/8/9 split, both kingdoms are neutral) especially with a kingdom being aligned at start. I think that there is still a great incentive to join the DS or Free when playing a neutral. The strength of either side is multiplied when a neutral joins as it is a +1 nation for one team and -1 for another.
I really have no idea how to correct this, but it is a big enough issue that that it plus the three way game is enough to lessen the interested of 6 of the 8 guys who play MEPBM with me from wanting to hit 4th age again. I think the idea of no contact between the three sides (and no true neutrals) is GREAT and that concept would get some of them interested, but I know that is a specialty game and not the standard.I enjoy the diplomacy so this option of inability to contact others would not be an improvement in my opinion.
Rollin
“I really have no idea how to correct this, but it is a big enough issue that that it plus the three way game is enough to lessen the interested of 6 of the 8 guys who play MEPBM with me from wanting to hit 4th age again.”
If you’re not a big fan of the Neutral impact (if I read this correctly) why not go with the Grudge format (either 12v12 or the 3 way game?) That way you don’t have the issue (good or bad) of Neutrals impacting.
Clint
Regional choices, IMO, are a great success. In the past we constantly had to bump players to locations they hadn’t choosen - the south being particularly well chosen and that annoyed players no end. Now you know where you’ll be on the map, get to set-up appropriately and have a safe capital choice even if you don’t get everything you want. I think that is a major boon.
It also rewards players for being in the North (and other regions of the map) (rather than penalise them as the old system did) and uses a lot more of the map which I think adds interest and variability to the game. With the SNA minor changes (bonus for being in the North) then it adds an extra twist IMO to set-up for the game. (Sometimes you need just that extra 1k SNA to do your set-up for example).
I agree it is more complex (but like all things once you’ve done it once then you know what to do), but the guaranteed capital tick-box was also complex and caused no end of confusion. I don’t think we’ll be tweaking it much for the short-term though as it looks fine to me (and from the feedback for others) so there’s that benefit.
Agent question - well I guess that one will run and run… 
(My own experience as a player that 3 60 rank agents with stealth with +20k/a would do rather well… :eek: )
Clint
I liked the new setup but I’ve only had to do one 4th age setup before
and that was a kingdom. I agree the regiional choices helps the Northen
players but I think a bigger reward should be given to the north east players
who suffer from terrible production… An extra 3k SNA would be in order…
And yes I agree with Clint 3 60 agents with stealth and +20 k/a are
lethal… Its how you play them and Clint can testify to that in G12…
Guy
"An extra 3k SNA would be in order… "
Way too strong IMO. Why the NE not just the North? I think the mix is fine. I’d be tempted by extra points for SNAs but at present I feel they are okay.
Clint
The regions with poor production, so I guess that counts Eriador aswell…
It makes a too large a difference between the poor production regions, Northen
Wastes, Rhionavvon and Eriador and the rest. Maybe a +3k is too much
but a +2k wouldnt be…
Just my 2 cents
Guy
But they get an extra Major Town already. Say @60% tax that’s 4,500 extra gold per turn on down south (say 3 camps), plus additional recruitment and b/up safety. (Note I agree that their economy is not great - hence the improvement).
And 1500 SNA gold bonus. Opinions welcome.
Clint
Thats all well and good but safe camping is terrible especially for Rhionavon.
For example most players can safetly camp in their regions and gain good
product and gold in the camping window but the three most lacking
in products, Eriador, NW or Rhionvavon find that very hard… This is
what makes the crucial difference between a succesfull nation and nearly
has been in 4th age IMO…
I’m not playing either of those 3 again can’t you tell… Lol Give me Rhu,
Agmar, Forlindon, Lorien or any of the south nations anytime…
Guy
I really have no idea how to correct this, but it is a big enough issue that that it plus the three way game is enough to lessen the interested of 6 of the 8 guys who play MEPBM with me from wanting to hit 4th age again. I think the idea of no contact between the three sides (and no true neutrals) is GREAT and that concept would get some of them interested, but I know that is a specialty game and not the standard.
If they are interested in a 3-way scenario please send them my way at BairG@nasd.com. I’m getting players together for a 3-way 4th Age game. Anyone else feel free to contact me as well. We’re only a couple of players away from where Clint said he would post the game to the ‘Games Filling’ section.
Specific details can be found here:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/message/18889?l=1
and also in this very forum under “Drumming up interest…”.
Greg
So why not camp outside your “safe” area? That’s what I do all the time. Or play a less active Emmissary nation (note with the new pcs most camp limits are hit much earlier so …)
Or don’t choose a Northern nation…
Clint
I agree with Clint. Camp outside your map. Do it strategically. Think.
And with respect to the complaint from someone that the setup was too complex, I humbly disagree. I really enjoyed thinking through the setup and all of the ramifications of this decision vs. that decision, etc. For me, that’s big fun.
Gee, camp outside the map… I never would have thought of such a tactic…
Seriously now; in a GB it really does hurt a couple of nations who in the
limited camping window will land half the time on already created camps.
while having to camp outside their map.
Setup took 30 mins… Great Excel sheet…
Guy - in FA GB, you’ll want those camps outside your map. they’re useful for all sorts of things beyond production:
a. stage a mage there that can do ScryArea & PrenMgy from a forward position to get you more map info that you don’t yet have.
b. army food resupply
c. emmie training en-route to places
d. agent training en-route to places
etc… And I’m sure you’ll think of lots smarter ideas than those. Point is, to setup camps in good strategic locations is a bit of a crapshoot (i.e. did someone else camp there first or beat you to it on the 555), but it can payoff downstream. I bet the FA GB games are going to be very long games…
enjoy!
Dave
I bet the FA GB games are going to be very long games…
Game 44 certainly seems to be shaping up that way…
FA SUCKS!!!first of all another player’s popctr was placed in my region with a tower on it and I was told It would not make a difference by a gm(this is not the response I expected) the tower was later removed but not the popcenter(problem not solved).then problems with meow and I was special serviced never did get it working correctly since the gm I was dealing with didnot know how it works(problem not solved).I switched to automagic for my FA game two turns of things working correctly now i am SS AGAIN!!!DO NOT PLAY FA there are way to many problems but if you do play take hire armies for free and conjure mounts your enimies sure will anything else is a waste.
OTIS