2-1 Let the game end

mepbmlist
#1

Joel, I get really nervous when peoplw start talking about 'honorable' things to do. These are the inflexible ethic sorts who can damage this game.

Here's an 'honor' thing to think about: The fellow you widh to attack is a warrior while you are not. He struggles forward as long as he can draw breath in his body because he has to much self pride to quit. He subscribes to the warrior ethos of fighting on agsinst odds and will strive to do so in new and creative ways.

See, 'honor' is a two edged sword. Keep the arguements to the practical plane.

···

From: "jmason86" <jmason86@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: 2-1 Let the game end
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:05:55 -0000

Gavin,

The reason people drop more often now is that unlike most other PBM
games, this is a TEAM game...even the solo games are TEAM GAMES.
The honorable thing to do in MEPBM IS TO DROP when you know your
team has been defeated...not when every MT is pryed from your dead
fingers. That just pisses other players off.

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Wynford-Jones <gavinwj@c...>
wrote:
> > Those
> > players who enjoy the "pry my nation from my cold dead
> hands" style
> > can all join a game together and no-one has (legitimate) cause to
> > complain.
>
> I, for one, would be interested in knowing how many such
> players there are.
>
> (Puts an old codger hat on) Back when I started playing PBM, some
> 25 years (gak!) ago, a player who dropped was a rarity. Now
> players seem to drop whenever they feel like it. That's a far
> bigger problem for games than anything else.
>
> Gavin

_________________________________________________________________
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#2

Being a former Marine, I know a thing or two about "honor". So you
would argue that since Iraq has been defeated, that the soldiers
that continue to kill our guys are honorable....nope, they are just
plain thugs and murderers.

There is a difference in fighting for a cause and fighting to just
fight...

He struggles forward as long as he can draw breath in his body
because he has to much self pride to quit.

Man!! You are giving a little too much credit to Frank!! :wink:

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Ovatha Easterling"
<ovatha88@h...> wrote:

Joel, I get really nervous when peoplw start talking

about 'honorable'

things to do. These are the inflexible ethic sorts who can damage

this

game.

Here's an 'honor' thing to think about: The fellow you widh to

attack is a

warrior while you are not. He struggles forward as long as he can

draw

breath in his body because he has to much self pride to quit. He

subscribes

to the warrior ethos of fighting on agsinst odds and will strive

to do so in

new and creative ways.

See, 'honor' is a two edged sword. Keep the arguements to the

practical

plane.

>From: "jmason86" <jmason86@h...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: 2-1 Let the game end
>Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:05:55 -0000
>
>Gavin,
>
>The reason people drop more often now is that unlike most other

PBM

>games, this is a TEAM game...even the solo games are TEAM GAMES.
>The honorable thing to do in MEPBM IS TO DROP when you know your
>team has been defeated...not when every MT is pryed from your dead
>fingers. That just pisses other players off.
>
>--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Wynford-Jones

<gavinwj@c...>

>wrote:
> > > Those
> > > players who enjoy the "pry my nation from my cold dead
> > hands" style
> > > can all join a game together and no-one has (legitimate)

cause to

> > > complain.
> >
> > I, for one, would be interested in knowing how many such
> > players there are.
> >
> > (Puts an old codger hat on) Back when I started playing PBM,

some

···

> > 25 years (gak!) ago, a player who dropped was a rarity. Now
> > players seem to drop whenever they feel like it. That's a far
> > bigger problem for games than anything else.
> >
> > Gavin
>

_________________________________________________________________
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#3

Let's not turn this into a honor debate. Honor is very subjective
especially on an international message board. I realize I will get
no where debating that!

Being a former Marine, I know a thing or two about "honor". So

you

would argue that since Iraq has been defeated, that the soldiers
that continue to kill our guys are honorable....nope, they are

just

plain thugs and murderers.

There is a difference in fighting for a cause and fighting to just
fight...

>He struggles forward as long as he can draw breath in his body
>because he has to much self pride to quit.

Man!! You are giving a little too much credit to Frank!! :wink:

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Ovatha Easterling"
<ovatha88@h...> wrote:
> Joel, I get really nervous when peoplw start talking
about 'honorable'
> things to do. These are the inflexible ethic sorts who can

damage

this
> game.
>
> Here's an 'honor' thing to think about: The fellow you widh to
attack is a
> warrior while you are not. He struggles forward as long as he

can

draw
> breath in his body because he has to much self pride to quit. He
subscribes
> to the warrior ethos of fighting on agsinst odds and will strive
to do so in
> new and creative ways.
>
> See, 'honor' is a two edged sword. Keep the arguements to the
practical
> plane.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "jmason86" <jmason86@h...>
> >Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> >To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: 2-1 Let the game end
> >Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:05:55 -0000
> >
> >Gavin,
> >
> >The reason people drop more often now is that unlike most other
PBM
> >games, this is a TEAM game...even the solo games are TEAM GAMES.
> >The honorable thing to do in MEPBM IS TO DROP when you know your
> >team has been defeated...not when every MT is pryed from your

dead

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "jmason86" <jmason86@h...> wrote:

> >fingers. That just pisses other players off.
> >
> >--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Wynford-Jones
<gavinwj@c...>
> >wrote:
> > > > Those
> > > > players who enjoy the "pry my nation from my cold dead
> > > hands" style
> > > > can all join a game together and no-one has (legitimate)
cause to
> > > > complain.
> > >
> > > I, for one, would be interested in knowing how many such
> > > players there are.
> > >
> > > (Puts an old codger hat on) Back when I started playing PBM,
some
> > > 25 years (gak!) ago, a player who dropped was a rarity. Now
> > > players seem to drop whenever they feel like it. That's a far
> > > bigger problem for games than anything else.
> > >
> > > Gavin
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

#4

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Ovatha Easterling" <ovatha88@h...>
wrote:

Joel, I get really nervous when peoplw start talking

about 'honorable'

things to do. These are the inflexible ethic sorts who can damage

this

game.

Here's an 'honor' thing to think about: The fellow you widh to

attack is a

warrior while you are not. He struggles forward as long as he can

draw

breath in his body because he has to much self pride to quit. He

subscribes

to the warrior ethos of fighting on agsinst odds and will strive to

do so in

new and creative ways.

See, 'honor' is a two edged sword. Keep the arguements to the

practical

plane.

I agree with Ovatha, in fact I don't think this is a bug hunt,
because the teams agreed to rules which keep them from kidnapping or
assassinating characters. If what Brad Brunet believes is true that
there is no cursing of characters as well then Frank Gingrich has a
perfectly good chance of defeating the hordes of opponents. He can
simply recruit an army at each of his major towns, thus you can't use
your emissaries against him as hostile armies will be there. You
can't challenge him to death because he can refuse challenge. He can
send his emissaries against you however unless you too opt to keep an
army at each of your major towns thus tying down your commanders and
eating your resources. He can have his best mage locate the Ring and
send his best challenge character to fetch it. Then how much warning
will you have before he either gives it to Sauron if he is DS or
destroys the ring if Free? Maybe 3 or 4 turns, then what will you do
to stop him? You because of the rules you accepted can only challenge
him with one character, and it better be your best. You can't murder
him on the way or curse him on the way or at the site, you can't
kidnap him, you are in the weak position now because of the rules you
accepted. You must try to eliminate him militarilly or financially
before he executes the Ring gambit. His emissaries are free to move
around delaying your efforts, it takes time to get your troops to his
pops, and those won't be the only pops he has if he has decent
emissaries. No this isn't a bug hunt no matter what the odds because
of the limitations you placed on your character abilities. You were
looking for a war game, pure military only, Frank is not accomodating
you. His compadres may have lost the will to continue but he has not.
You haven't defeated him as he has the will and probably the means to
continue and make this a difficult proposition for you, he even has
the means to win. Bravo to Frank Gingrich and shame on you opponents
who are clamoring for the Moderator to step in and declare you the
victors, when you clearly have a lot of work to do before you can say
you won the game. Sure you can beat him if you work together, but
just because you outnumber him dramatically because his other 4
allies quit should give you the right to claim the game should end.
As long as he has real options to defeat you the game should continue.

>From: "jmason86" <jmason86@h...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: 2-1 Let the game end
>Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:05:55 -0000
>
>Gavin,
>
>The reason people drop more often now is that unlike most other PBM
>games, this is a TEAM game...even the solo games are TEAM GAMES.
>The honorable thing to do in MEPBM IS TO DROP when you know your
>team has been defeated...not when every MT is pryed from your dead
>fingers. That just pisses other players off.
>
>--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Wynford-Jones

<gavinwj@c...>

>wrote:
> > > Those
> > > players who enjoy the "pry my nation from my cold dead
> > hands" style
> > > can all join a game together and no-one has (legitimate)

cause to

> > > complain.
> >
> > I, for one, would be interested in knowing how many such
> > players there are.
> >
> > (Puts an old codger hat on) Back when I started playing PBM,

some

···

> > 25 years (gak!) ago, a player who dropped was a rarity. Now
> > players seem to drop whenever they feel like it. That's a far
> > bigger problem for games than anything else.
> >
> > Gavin
>

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

#5

I really wish people would read the entire thread before posting
responses.

- It's fourth age so there is no ring. This has been said in about 5
other posts. There is no ring. Read the previous posts. There is no ring.
- Every single other FP honored the concession. Not 4...11. He is the
only player remaining on his team. All 12 DS are still in the game.
It's 1 against 12. This has also been said.
- Curse is allowed. The DS just chose not to field curse squads. That
can certainly be rectified but it will definitely take some time.
This, too, has been said.

Now for a bit of new information.

- The guy already lost one capital, most of his starting PCs, and at
least a few of the camps he placed. He really can't have much of a
position left.
- None of the DS have lost anything larger than a town.

Do you still think he has any "real options to defeat" us?

Keith

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "kingoftherill" <kingoftherill@y...>
wrote:

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Ovatha Easterling" <ovatha88@h...>
wrote:
> Joel, I get really nervous when peoplw start talking
about 'honorable'
> things to do. These are the inflexible ethic sorts who can damage
this
> game.
>
> Here's an 'honor' thing to think about: The fellow you widh to
attack is a
> warrior while you are not. He struggles forward as long as he can
draw
> breath in his body because he has to much self pride to quit. He
subscribes
> to the warrior ethos of fighting on agsinst odds and will strive to
do so in
> new and creative ways.
>
> See, 'honor' is a two edged sword. Keep the arguements to the
practical
> plane.

I agree with Ovatha, in fact I don't think this is a bug hunt,
because the teams agreed to rules which keep them from kidnapping or
assassinating characters. If what Brad Brunet believes is true that
there is no cursing of characters as well then Frank Gingrich has a
perfectly good chance of defeating the hordes of opponents. He can
simply recruit an army at each of his major towns, thus you can't use
your emissaries against him as hostile armies will be there. You
can't challenge him to death because he can refuse challenge. He can
send his emissaries against you however unless you too opt to keep an
army at each of your major towns thus tying down your commanders and
eating your resources. He can have his best mage locate the Ring and
send his best challenge character to fetch it. Then how much warning
will you have before he either gives it to Sauron if he is DS or
destroys the ring if Free? Maybe 3 or 4 turns, then what will you do
to stop him? You because of the rules you accepted can only challenge
him with one character, and it better be your best. You can't murder
him on the way or curse him on the way or at the site, you can't
kidnap him, you are in the weak position now because of the rules you
accepted. You must try to eliminate him militarilly or financially
before he executes the Ring gambit. His emissaries are free to move
around delaying your efforts, it takes time to get your troops to his
pops, and those won't be the only pops he has if he has decent
emissaries. No this isn't a bug hunt no matter what the odds because
of the limitations you placed on your character abilities. You were
looking for a war game, pure military only, Frank is not accomodating
you. His compadres may have lost the will to continue but he has not.
You haven't defeated him as he has the will and probably the means to
continue and make this a difficult proposition for you, he even has
the means to win. Bravo to Frank Gingrich and shame on you opponents
who are clamoring for the Moderator to step in and declare you the
victors, when you clearly have a lot of work to do before you can say
you won the game. Sure you can beat him if you work together, but
just because you outnumber him dramatically because his other 4
allies quit should give you the right to claim the game should end.
As long as he has real options to defeat you the game should continue.

>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "jmason86" <jmason86@h...>
> >Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> >To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: 2-1 Let the game end
> >Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:05:55 -0000
> >
> >Gavin,
> >
> >The reason people drop more often now is that unlike most other PBM
> >games, this is a TEAM game...even the solo games are TEAM GAMES.
> >The honorable thing to do in MEPBM IS TO DROP when you know your
> >team has been defeated...not when every MT is pryed from your dead
> >fingers. That just pisses other players off.
> >
> >--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Wynford-Jones
<gavinwj@c...>
> >wrote:
> > > > Those
> > > > players who enjoy the "pry my nation from my cold dead
> > > hands" style
> > > > can all join a game together and no-one has (legitimate)
cause to
> > > > complain.
> > >
> > > I, for one, would be interested in knowing how many such
> > > players there are.
> > >
> > > (Puts an old codger hat on) Back when I started playing PBM,
some
> > > 25 years (gak!) ago, a player who dropped was a rarity. Now
> > > players seem to drop whenever they feel like it. That's a far
> > > bigger problem for games than anything else.
> > >
> > > Gavin
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

#6

- The guy already lost one capital, most of his starting PCs, and at
least a few of the camps he placed. He really can't have much of a
position left.
- None of the DS have lost anything larger than a town.

Do you still think he has any "real options to defeat" us?

Doesnt' matter what I think.. He seems to think he should stay in.
Maybe he doesn't want the hit on Score for player ranking that comes
with dropping.

#7

Hi,

Being a former Marine, I know a thing or two about "honor". So you
would argue that since Iraq has been defeated, that the soldiers
that continue to kill our guys are honorable....nope, they are just
plain thugs and murderers.

<cringe> ... and standing by whilst priceless historical and cultural
relics are looted, hospitals (HOSPITALS!) are looted - that's
honourable is it?

But this is a list to talk about MEPBM, so ....

There is a difference in fighting for a cause and fighting to just
fight...

Er, MEPBM is a *game*. Personally I rather enjoy defending hopeless
situations in wargames. You know, a small force holding out in the
fortress against overwhelming odds. :slight_smile:

I fully agree with your statement in terms of the real world, but this
is a game and if people find pleasure in holing out against the odds,
they should have the opportunity to do so. Of course if the rules of
the game say that at 3:1 odds the game is over, so be it. No problem.
I would suggest though that making all games 3:1 would be a mistake as
this would be restricting people's choice ... it would mean for
instance that I would only ever play grudge games.

Colin

#8

> - The guy already lost one capital, most of his starting PCs, and

at

> least a few of the camps he placed. He really can't have much of a
> position left.
> - None of the DS have lost anything larger than a town.
>
> Do you still think he has any "real options to defeat" us?
>

Doesnt' matter what I think.. He seems to think he should stay in.
Maybe he doesn't want the hit on Score for player ranking that comes
with dropping.

Then finish him, 12 against 1 it should be easy enough for you. Stop
complaining and just win the game. As for reading all the posts,
please there are just too many. I still don't understand why you all
agreed to such restrictive rules. If you wanted a purely military
game with no kidnaps etc, why didn't you play BOFA. As it is Frank
may stand alone but at least he is not crying for the moderator to
arbitrarily end the game. You should stop now and concentrate on
actually finishing him off.

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, kurgan <kurgan@o...> wrote:

#9

Then finish him, 12 against 1 it should be easy enough for you.

**If Frank was me, he could keep a game going a very long time. He
also has the luxury of being in a secluded area of the map not
easily reachable by enemy armies. Finishing him off isn't the
problem, it's the amount of time its going to take. In the end, he
will lose.

Stop complaining and just win the game.

**We're not "complaining" in order to win the game. We've already
won and think Clint will agree with us when he returns.
We're "complaining" so Clint might make a change to the average game
so players don't end up in bug hunts wasting time/money. We see an
area in the game that dramatically takes away from enjoyment of the
game and we see a fix. If we say nothing, nothing will be done.

As for reading all the posts, please there are just too many.

**What, don't I have the right to post as much as I want!?!? If
players like Frank are allowed to play 10 turns after they've lost
the game, then I should be allowed post 10 messages a day. Please
stop your complaining. :slight_smile:

I still don't understand why you all agreed to such restrictive
rules.

**Have you read the rules?

If you wanted a purely military game with no kidnaps etc, why
didn't you play BOFA.

**Personally, I don't know anything about BOFA. I thought it was a
game for beginners. The only thing negative in NKA is the bughunts
which are made worse than the average game by not having agents or
curse squads.

As it is Frank may stand alone but at least he is not crying for
the moderator to arbitrarily end the game.

**I really don't see any reason why Frank would complain to the
moderators...he's the bug remember.

You should stop now and concentrate on actually finishing him off.

Are you Frank?

#10

> Then finish him, 12 against 1 it should be easy enough for you.
**If Frank was me, he could keep a game going a very long time. He
also has the luxury of being in a secluded area of the map not
easily reachable by enemy armies. Finishing him off isn't the
problem, it's the amount of time its going to take. In the end, he
will lose.

>Stop complaining and just win the game.
**We're not "complaining" in order to win the game. We've already
won and think Clint will agree with us when he returns.
We're "complaining" so Clint might make a change to the average

game

so players don't end up in bug hunts wasting time/money. We see an
area in the game that dramatically takes away from enjoyment of the
game and we see a fix. If we say nothing, nothing will be done.

>As for reading all the posts, please there are just too many.
**What, don't I have the right to post as much as I want!?!? If
players like Frank are allowed to play 10 turns after they've lost
the game, then I should be allowed post 10 messages a day. Please
stop your complaining. :slight_smile:

>I still don't understand why you all agreed to such restrictive
>rules.
**Have you read the rules?

>If you wanted a purely military game with no kidnaps etc, why
>didn't you play BOFA.
**Personally, I don't know anything about BOFA. I thought it was a
game for beginners. The only thing negative in NKA is the bughunts
which are made worse than the average game by not having agents or
curse squads.

>As it is Frank may stand alone but at least he is not crying for
>the moderator to arbitrarily end the game.
**I really don't see any reason why Frank would complain to the
moderators...he's the bug remember.

>You should stop now and concentrate on actually finishing him off.
Are you Frank?

No Mr Mason I am not Frank. No you are correct this is a free form
message board and you are free to post as many postings on this as
you want. However the fact that there may be a hundred postings on a
subject thread does not obligate me to read each and everyone before
I make a comment. You see I have other things to do as well and must
manage my time. I never thought that this was a chat room however. I
guess in hind sight I should have just made my comment short. Clint
has no reason to get involved in this or any other game where a die
hard refuses to give up. There is nothing in the rules of 1650 that
state a ratio that establishes what team wins or loses. I'll admit
that I have never played 4th Age, and never seen the rules for it.
The subject of this thread however tells me that I should probably
stay with 1650. I wasn't aware that BOFA was a game for beginners, I
was under the impression that it is a military victory conditions war
game with much reduced scope designed to play to conclusion more
quickly than the other scenarios. I agree with Gavin, there are many
views on the subject, I will stay out of the honor arena, but my
opinion is that if all players in your game agreed to a game end
ratio before the game started then the game should be declared over
by the moderator. If not however it should play on until you are
victorious which I gather from your postings should not be a
question. Frank may not be despicable, he may be trying to turn his
abondonment by his allies into a chance to experiment with Fabian
tactics for as long as he can. I don't know him or his motivations
but he should have the right to continue even in a hopeless cause
unless it is denied by the rules or pre game conventions agreed to by
all players.

Happy Easter to you
American Brad

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "jmason86" <jmason86@h...> wrote:

#11

Personally, I don't know anything about BOFA. I thought it was a
game for beginners. The only thing negative in NKA is the bughunts
which are made worse than the average game by not having agents or
curse squads.

BOFA is a game designed for new players but very much playable by Experienced players as well. During the w/end we spent some time looking at it (it's what we promote at cons) and came up with a few strategies - note quite a few - for both teams. 615ing is allowed in Bofa btw.

Having played it a few times (and just about to play another one) I think it's a good game for many players. Note you can play it with the restricted orders that are allowed in the Beginner's game or use all 1650/1000 orders if you want as well so that even though you don't start with any Ems like in many of the positions in the normal scenarios you can 725 one out.

Clint

#12

Hi,

Personally, I don't know anything about BOFA. I thought it was a
game for beginners. The only thing negative in NKA is the bughunts
which are made worse than the average game by not having agents or
curse squads.

Bofa is definitely not just for beginners, though it does an excellent
job in that respect. In my view BofA is much more of a simple wargame
than any of the other scenarios, requiring different tactics and a
different approach in general. Check out the game diaries published in
both Flagship and News from Bree.

Personally I'm not a BofA fan - but I should qualify that. I like the
other scenarios because of the wide scope for character action and the
large number of players on each team. Bofa offers neither. However
what is does offer is an excellent wargame, i.e not so much my cup of
tea. I can however appreciate the thought that has gone into the game
design, and as a result would heartily recommend it to both new
players and existing players looking for a short, sharp (and it can be
very brutal!) wargame.

Colin

P.S. Don't play the Elves, play the Goblins :slight_smile:

#13

P.S. Don't play the Elves, play the Goblins :slight_smile:

The Elves can be hard sometimes, but they can be a lot of fun as well.
I've only played two BOFA games, but one was as the Elves. I was able to
all but defeat the Wargs, except for his capital. (The Necromancer even
killed himself when he miscalculated and assaulted a Pop Center he
shouldn't have). I was even able to take out a Goblin major town, and
help take out a couple others.

Anything can happen.

Mike Mulka

#14

Lots of fun this game. Fast and new.

Clint

···

>P.S. Don't play the Elves, play the Goblins :slight_smile:

The Elves can be hard sometimes, but they can be a lot of fun as well.
I've only played two BOFA games, but one was as the Elves. I was able to
all but defeat the Wargs, except for his capital. (The Necromancer even
killed himself when he miscalculated and assaulted a Pop Center he
shouldn't have). I was even able to take out a Goblin major town, and
help take out a couple others.

Anything can happen.

Mike Mulka

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