2-1 Let the game end

Clint:
Well if Brad is going to join the beleaugred Frank I will also. Give Brad the most viable of the drops and I will take the next most viable. Gavin---come on down. Lets make these guys earn their payments to Harley.
109364

···

From: "kingoftherill" <kingoftherill@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: 2-1 Let the game end
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:32:48 -0000

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "corsairs game 101"
<corsairs101@h...> wrote:
> >Egads what a gab fest over a subject that has been beaten to death
> >several times before on both the old forum page and GSI's message
> >board.
>
> Please forgive. I've not been involved in this conversation
before. It is
> new to me. People come in and out of the game all the time. What
is an
> "old topic" to some, may be new to others.
>
> >Darrell if he's the only one left you guys must have almost as
> >many characters in each and every category as he has total
> >characters, seems like coordinated use would finish the game
quickly.
>
> It is a 12v12 special rules, modified grudge game. No kidnap or
assassinate
> allowed. We're going to have to track down this bug with armies,
and with
> 11 of his teammates out, he'll have lots of places to InfOthr away
to hide
> in the hills.
>
> Either all 12 of us stay in to get good map coverage to chace him
down
> wherever he hides, or a few of us could spend dozens of turns
chasing the
> bug from one area to another. All to end a game that was a "done
deal"
> after GT10.
>
> >How many major towns can you see but not account for the owners?
>
> No idea how many MTs might be out there. In 4th age, with starting
60
> emissaries out the A..... We saw no offensive use of emissaries,
so those
> emissaries may have been very busy creating pops for this guy to
pick up off
> droped nations.

So are you saying your team has retired his emissaries becaus
you "saw no offensive use of emissaries"? If not I don't get your
point. You have map coverage with all 12 of your team active right?
In 4th age don't your turn reports tell you which major towns you
own? If so someone on your team should be able to mark off the major
towns you know you have, and you can send those useless agents to the
unknown towns to find out who owns them. If it is his you have an
objective to march on, if not it is inactive so steal from it and
move on or send an agent there accompanied by a challenge character
to scout and then challenge any of his characters that come by. Send
your better agents to his pops to steal and sabotage stores. If he is
not playing dead he must have armies in the field that he has to pay
maintenance for if you steal his gold and sabotage massive amounts of
his production materials he cannot sell to cover his deficit if he
has one. The result is his taxes go up and loyalty degrades making it
easier for you to threaten. Use LAT and Reveal Character True to
locate his characters then send your challenge gods after them.
Surely you have at least one good challenge character per nation. How
many can he possibly have? I've been a bug, not for long but two of
us in a past 1650 game fought on for 6 turns after our allies had
been put down. We weren't just bugs, we took population centers,
raided with our fleets, fought the character war etc. Our opponents
simply began to track us down methodically and killed our economies,
when my only surviving ally was eliminated and I was down to 7
characters at that point I capitulated. I learned valuable lessons in
that one sided fight and have spoken with a couple of my opponents
who said the same. Granted it was a 1650 game and they could
assassinate, kidnap, curse, influence, and challenge us which they
did. You seem hamstrung by the conditions you explain.

Hell Clint I can solve this for you right now. I will join the bug
swarm and make it 2 against 12 for as long as we can hang on. Maybe
there are others also then at least the victors can fight less long
odds. C'mon guys you ought to be able to take him out don't try and
make Clint do it for you, and end this thread.
>
> >I totally disagree with whoever posted the make players pay up
front
> >for a minimum number of turns no refunds thought. I think that
would
> >drive many players from the game. I haven't heard much on the
rating
> >system, but it was my understanding that this was more a tool to
help
> >Clint set up more competitive games among players with
approximately
> >the same skills.
>
> NO!!!!! if that is all it was to be used for, then he could just
keep a
> list of how many games you've been in and how many you've won.
>
> The monster that is to be the player ranking system will create a
list of
> "best players" that will be shoved in everyone faces on a monthly
mailing
> and on the web site. Unfortunatly, these "best players" will be
bugs that
> hid for a dozen turns until the opposition got frustrated and went
looking
> for an enjoyable game.
>
> Player rankings is the absolute WORST thing that could happen to
MEPBM.
>
> Darrell Shimel
>
> >I do think however that there is probably a way to
> >track those who continually drop early in the game for no apparent
> >reason, or at the first experience of a reversal they give up. In
> >those cases I believe Clint could point out to them how disruptive
to
> >their team mates that behavior is and warn that player he will be
in
> >a probationary status for, say his next two games, and if he
> >continues his past drop propensity he will suffer a ban of say 6
> >months, before being accepted into a new game. That might make
throw
> >away games less common among this type of players.
> >
> > >
_________________________________________________________________
> > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Ovatha Easterling" <ovatha88@h...>
wrote:

Clint:
Well if Brad is going to join the beleaugred Frank I will also.

Give Brad

the most viable of the drops and I will take the next most viable.
Gavin---come on down. Lets make these guys earn their payments to

Harley.

109364

Well Ovatha, Mr Mason declines. It seems that he is only interested
in the moderator settling the game for him. I guess we will just have
to buzz off:-) I do hope that Clint lets Frank fight on if he wishes
and Frank I wish you success, make them earn it if you get the
chance.

Brad

>From: "kingoftherill" <kingoftherill@y...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: 2-1 Let the game end
>Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:32:48 -0000
>
>--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "corsairs game 101"
><corsairs101@h...> wrote:
> > >Egads what a gab fest over a subject that has been beaten to

death

> > >several times before on both the old forum page and GSI's

message

> > >board.
> >
> > Please forgive. I've not been involved in this conversation
>before. It is
> > new to me. People come in and out of the game all the time.

What

>is an
> > "old topic" to some, may be new to others.
> >
> > >Darrell if he's the only one left you guys must have almost as
> > >many characters in each and every category as he has total
> > >characters, seems like coordinated use would finish the game
>quickly.
> >
> > It is a 12v12 special rules, modified grudge game. No kidnap or
>assassinate
> > allowed. We're going to have to track down this bug with

armies,

>and with
> > 11 of his teammates out, he'll have lots of places to InfOthr

away

>to hide
> > in the hills.
> >
> > Either all 12 of us stay in to get good map coverage to chace

him

>down
> > wherever he hides, or a few of us could spend dozens of turns
>chasing the
> > bug from one area to another. All to end a game that was

a "done

>deal"
> > after GT10.
> >
> > >How many major towns can you see but not account for the

owners?

> >
> > No idea how many MTs might be out there. In 4th age, with

starting

>60
> > emissaries out the A..... We saw no offensive use of

emissaries,

>so those
> > emissaries may have been very busy creating pops for this guy to
>pick up off
> > droped nations.
>
>So are you saying your team has retired his emissaries becaus
>you "saw no offensive use of emissaries"? If not I don't get your
>point. You have map coverage with all 12 of your team active

right?

>In 4th age don't your turn reports tell you which major towns you
>own? If so someone on your team should be able to mark off the

major

>towns you know you have, and you can send those useless agents to

the

>unknown towns to find out who owns them. If it is his you have an
>objective to march on, if not it is inactive so steal from it and
>move on or send an agent there accompanied by a challenge character
>to scout and then challenge any of his characters that come by.

Send

>your better agents to his pops to steal and sabotage stores. If he

is

>not playing dead he must have armies in the field that he has to

pay

>maintenance for if you steal his gold and sabotage massive amounts

of

>his production materials he cannot sell to cover his deficit if he
>has one. The result is his taxes go up and loyalty degrades making

it

>easier for you to threaten. Use LAT and Reveal Character True to
>locate his characters then send your challenge gods after them.
>Surely you have at least one good challenge character per nation.

How

>many can he possibly have? I've been a bug, not for long but two

of

>us in a past 1650 game fought on for 6 turns after our allies had
>been put down. We weren't just bugs, we took population centers,
>raided with our fleets, fought the character war etc. Our opponents
>simply began to track us down methodically and killed our

economies,

>when my only surviving ally was eliminated and I was down to 7
>characters at that point I capitulated. I learned valuable lessons

in

>that one sided fight and have spoken with a couple of my opponents
>who said the same. Granted it was a 1650 game and they could
>assassinate, kidnap, curse, influence, and challenge us which they
>did. You seem hamstrung by the conditions you explain.
>
>Hell Clint I can solve this for you right now. I will join the bug
>swarm and make it 2 against 12 for as long as we can hang on. Maybe
>there are others also then at least the victors can fight less long
>odds. C'mon guys you ought to be able to take him out don't try and
>make Clint do it for you, and end this thread.
> >
> >
> > >I totally disagree with whoever posted the make players pay up
>front
> > >for a minimum number of turns no refunds thought. I think that
>would
> > >drive many players from the game. I haven't heard much on the
>rating
> > >system, but it was my understanding that this was more a tool

to

>help
> > >Clint set up more competitive games among players with
>approximately
> > >the same skills.
> >
> > NO!!!!! if that is all it was to be used for, then he could

just

>keep a
> > list of how many games you've been in and how many you've won.
> >
> > The monster that is to be the player ranking system will create

a

>list of
> > "best players" that will be shoved in everyone faces on a

monthly

>mailing
> > and on the web site. Unfortunatly, these "best players" will be
>bugs that
> > hid for a dozen turns until the opposition got frustrated and

went

>looking
> > for an enjoyable game.
> >
> > Player rankings is the absolute WORST thing that could happen to
>MEPBM.
> >
> > Darrell Shimel
> >
> >
> > >I do think however that there is probably a way to
> > >track those who continually drop early in the game for no

apparent

> > >reason, or at the first experience of a reversal they give up.

In

> > >those cases I believe Clint could point out to them how

disruptive

>to
> > >their team mates that behavior is and warn that player he will

be

>in
> > >a probationary status for, say his next two games, and if he
> > >continues his past drop propensity he will suffer a ban of say

6

···

> > >months, before being accepted into a new game. That might make
>throw
> > >away games less common among this type of players.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
>_________________________________________________________________
> > > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> > > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
> > >
> >
> >
> >

_________________________________________________________________

> > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

I have let Frank carry on as it his right to do so. If you (or any others) want to take up nations in game 41 please get back to me off list and I will send on the turns as requested.

Clint

···

Clint:
> Well if Brad is going to join the beleaugred Frank I will also.
Give Brad
> the most viable of the drops and I will take the next most viable.
> Gavin---come on down. Lets make these guys earn their payments to
Harley.
> 109364

Well Ovatha, Mr Mason declines. It seems that he is only interested
in the moderator settling the game for him. I guess we will just have
to buzz off:-) I do hope that Clint lets Frank fight on if he wishes
and Frank I wish you success, make them earn it if you get the
chance.

Brad

I have let Frank carry on as it his right to do so. If you (or
any others) want to take up nations in game 41 please get back to
me off list and I will send on the turns as requested.

Clint,

This is the worst possible thing that can be done regarding our
game. Not only do we have to continue on against a bug nation, but
we have to guess at which of the other 9 FP nations you are going to
fill. So instead of being able to concentrate on the bug, we have
to spread our forces out. We also know the players that will be
taking the dropped positions are players that are bugs!!!!!!!!

We have a couple players that are going to drop out of disgust and
distate for this game. Are you going to fill their positions or are
you going to just fill the other side because they had more drops in
order to make it a more even game?

Before the "final turn" was processed the DS and previous FP players
got together and traded PDFs which Frank was included in so he has
our PDFs right now, but of course he didn't share his...

Generally I assume that the TC speaks on behalf of the team - saves
a lot of confusion (for us and the teams). In this case the TC
surrendered on behalf of the team which in every case before hand I
took to be a team drop.

So did we when we asked you guys whether we needed to send in final
turns and you said NO. Then we find we have 9 out of 12 nations
that didn't send in orders but the game is still continuing because
of 1 player.

When we received Frank's orders (after contacting him to be sure
that's what he wanted) we run the game - unfortunately I was away
on the day so wasn't able to clearly implement our policy here but
I think it got sorted correctly.

You have 12 players that STRONGLY disagree with you.

Note the "AS A TEAM" part in the following surrender note from the
FP TEAM captain.

MEGames --

The North Kingdom, and the Free People Team, are conceding defeat to
the South Kingdom and the Dark Servant Team (captained by Keith
Kendall) in Middle Earth PBM Fourth Aage c. 1000, game 41. We have
lost 4 nations as of turn 10, and are more or less holding our own
in some areas, losing ground in others. Therefore, despite the
desire to fight on by a few of our brave leaders, as a team we
concede that we have been essentially defeated, that it is merely a
matter of time. You should be receiving confirmation messages -- or
at least not receiving additional orders -- from the rest of the FP
Team. I am copying Keith on this message as well, to inform him of
his team's victory.

Congratulations to the Dark Servants, who showed fine coordination
as well as the ability to take advantage of opportunities when they
occurred!

> I have let Frank carry on as it his right to do so. If you (or
>any others) want to take up nations in game 41 please get back to
>me off list and I will send on the turns as requested.

Clint,

** So far I have not heard - note we often allow players to pick up nations in this way.

We have a couple players that are going to drop out of disgust and
distate for this game. Are you going to fill their positions or are
you going to just fill the other side because they had more drops in
order to make it a more even game?

Before the "final turn" was processed the DS and previous FP players
got together and traded PDFs which Frank was included in so he has
our PDFs right now, but of course he didn't share his...

*** I don't like it but those are the rules and I have to be impartial here.

>Generally I assume that the TC speaks on behalf of the team - saves
>a lot of confusion (for us and the teams). In this case the TC
>surrendered on behalf of the team which in every case before hand I
>took to be a team drop.

So did we when we asked you guys whether we needed to send in final
turns and you said NO. Then we find we have 9 out of 12 nations
that didn't send in orders but the game is still continuing because
of 1 player.

*** I have commented on this to your TC already. Please be patient whilst he disseminates the information and the solution that I have suggested. With specific problems I prefer to take the discussion off list.

>When we received Frank's orders (after contacting him to be sure
>that's what he wanted) we run the game - unfortunately I was away
>on the day so wasn't able to clearly implement our policy here but
>I think it got sorted correctly.

You have 12 players that STRONGLY disagree with you.

*** We're following procedure here. We're not the bad guys here either. Players have the right to play the game within certain criteria and so far none of those have been broken.

Clint

···

At 15:56 22/04/03, you wrote:

Frank was not included in the traded PDFs. Those players who were I
explicitly asked to _not_ share them with other players.

I can't guarantee they honored the request, but I have no reason to
believe they did not.

Keith

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "jmason86" <jmason86@h...> wrote:

> I have let Frank carry on as it his right to do so. If you (or
>any others) want to take up nations in game 41 please get back to
>me off list and I will send on the turns as requested.

Clint,

This is the worst possible thing that can be done regarding our
game. Not only do we have to continue on against a bug nation, but
we have to guess at which of the other 9 FP nations you are going to
fill. So instead of being able to concentrate on the bug, we have
to spread our forces out. We also know the players that will be
taking the dropped positions are players that are bugs!!!!!!!!

We have a couple players that are going to drop out of disgust and
distate for this game. Are you going to fill their positions or are
you going to just fill the other side because they had more drops in
order to make it a more even game?

Before the "final turn" was processed the DS and previous FP players
got together and traded PDFs which Frank was included in so he has
our PDFs right now, but of course he didn't share his...

>Generally I assume that the TC speaks on behalf of the team - saves
>a lot of confusion (for us and the teams). In this case the TC
>surrendered on behalf of the team which in every case before hand I
>took to be a team drop.

So did we when we asked you guys whether we needed to send in final
turns and you said NO. Then we find we have 9 out of 12 nations
that didn't send in orders but the game is still continuing because
of 1 player.

>When we received Frank's orders (after contacting him to be sure
>that's what he wanted) we run the game - unfortunately I was away
>on the day so wasn't able to clearly implement our policy here but
>I think it got sorted correctly.

You have 12 players that STRONGLY disagree with you.

Note the "AS A TEAM" part in the following surrender note from the
FP TEAM captain.

MEGames --

The North Kingdom, and the Free People Team, are conceding defeat to
the South Kingdom and the Dark Servant Team (captained by Keith
Kendall) in Middle Earth PBM Fourth Aage c. 1000, game 41. We have
lost 4 nations as of turn 10, and are more or less holding our own
in some areas, losing ground in others. Therefore, despite the
desire to fight on by a few of our brave leaders, as a team we
concede that we have been essentially defeated, that it is merely a
matter of time. You should be receiving confirmation messages -- or
at least not receiving additional orders -- from the rest of the FP
Team. I am copying Keith on this message as well, to inform him of
his team's victory.

Congratulations to the Dark Servants, who showed fine coordination
as well as the ability to take advantage of opportunities when they
occurred!