It would be my call then. If there were no obvious desire either way then
it stays the same... Democralazy in action. 51% would come under that - no
change.
Clint
>Yes - but say 90% of players would say "this is better" then that would
be
>good enough for me. So subjective as concerns players (if enough of a
>swing) would be fine.
What if 51% of players say "this is better"?
Hey Guys
I think, that the most aspects of the game as they are.....
I agree with Gavin and some of the other players that the light troops are
laughable......
But I think there were some good Ideas (No heavy troops in towns and smaller pop
centres).....
What I also do not like is that the only diference between Eothraim Cav and
Dwarven Cav ist the Armor and Weapons.....
I think that there should be differences between the troop types of all the
nations....
(For example the Eothraim Cav should have more than those 16/16 combat value,
while dwarves should have few.....)
There are so many examples (Duendain Knights and Ork Warriors and so on....)
Greetings
Stefan
It would be nice if there were appropriate bonuses?
Clint
More seriously, the one part of the game that really, really needs work is
the army side. When I first started playing, I took the nation sheet for
the
Sinda at face value and recruited archers, only to be told "Don't bother"
by
more experienced players.
Then there's the situation where cavalry charge a town... In a siege, only
foot soldiers and war machines should count. As for some nations' "bonus"
for cavalry and horsemanship; laughable.
How about if 51% of your customer base responded to Democralazy in
action by taking their money elsewhere? No don't worry I'm not going to
organise a boycott. But I think there's a serious point here. In the
longer term, the MEPBM customer base may well eventually go into slow
decline, if there is not attempt to keep the game fresh. You need to
watch what the majority are saying - only if its a small majority of the
hard core players.
That's why I think the discussion of a second edition is healthy - I'm
not expecting to ever such a think, but in my private, sordid fantasy
life, I like to dream of a 2nd edition coming out some time in the next
5 years. I think as it is, it may have another 5 years of interest for
me (after 7 already). After that, I'm probably ready for crown green
bowling anyway.
Regards,
Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/
Middle Earth PBM Games <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote
It would be my call then. If there were no obvious desire either way then
it stays the same... Democralazy in action. 51% would come under that - no
change.
Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
It would be nice if there were appropriate bonuses?
Absolutely. Rohan light cavaly would then be worth recruiting, for example.
Dwarven heavy infantry could give a good stomping to orcs. Etc.
Gavin
One idea is to automate some of the shipment orders. This could come
in stronger or weaker forms, and it's interesting to think about what
this would do.
You could eliminate the 947 order completely. When you need
leather/mounts/bronze/steel for troops, they could come proportionally
from all of your population centers (much like the current 947 order),
or maybe come from the local stock first and then pay a 10% shipping
charge from other spots. This would lead to much more cavalry and
armor/weapons (possibly even food and war machines!) and a more
dynamic military game. (This would equalize the 1650 military game
somewhat; given the dark metal production edge they could have a
"quality" edge against the free "quantity" edge.)
You could also give positions some fixed number of "free" 947 orders,
which would accomplish much of the same stuff. The main impact would
be to, again, allow more range in the kinds of troops recruited.
Either of these would also lessen the impact of capital hits by
agents.
This could be extended to the natsell/prchcar/sellcar orders. This
would again reduce agents while making the game simpler for new folks;
I'm less sure this is a good idea. You really *do* want to have a way
to drive people out of the game, and ecocide is one of the most common
ways it happens.
cheers,
Marc Pinsonneault
How about giving each MT and city a free 315, 320, 325, 947, or 948 order,
and perhaps an extra one for the capital? There must be a character
present, but it does not count as an order for that character? It would
require restructuring the turnsheet a bit, but would allow more flexibility.
an average nation has characters in their capital and one other MT/City as
well at any given time. this would give 3 bonus "administration" orders (2
for the capital, 1 for the other pop center) each turn, making your
characters less beaurocratic in nature.
- Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: pinsonneault.1@osu.edu [mailto:pinsonneault.1@osu.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 1:46 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] 2nd Edition of mepbm: automate shipment orders?One idea is to automate some of the shipment orders. This could come
in stronger or weaker forms, and it's interesting to think about what
this would do.You could eliminate the 947 order completely. When you need
leather/mounts/bronze/steel for troops, they could come proportionally
from all of your population centers (much like the current 947 order),
or maybe come from the local stock first and then pay a 10% shipping
charge from other spots. This would lead to much more cavalry and
armor/weapons (possibly even food and war machines!) and a more
dynamic military game. (This would equalize the 1650 military game
somewhat; given the dark metal production edge they could have a
"quality" edge against the free "quantity" edge.)You could also give positions some fixed number of "free" 947 orders,
which would accomplish much of the same stuff. The main impact would
be to, again, allow more range in the kinds of troops recruited.
Either of these would also lessen the impact of capital hits by
agents.This could be extended to the natsell/prchcar/sellcar orders. This
would again reduce agents while making the game simpler for new folks;
I'm less sure this is a good idea. You really *do* want to have a way
to drive people out of the game, and ecocide is one of the most common
ways it happens.cheers,
Marc Pinsonneault
Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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Glenn Bundy schrieb:
How about giving each MT and city a free 315, 320, 325, 947, or 948 order,
and perhaps an extra one for the capital? There must be a character
present, but it does not count as an order for that character? It would
require restructuring the turnsheet a bit, but would allow more flexibility.an average nation has characters in their capital and one other MT/City as
well at any given time. this would give 3 bonus "administration" orders (2
for the capital, 1 for the other pop center) each turn, making your
characters less beaurocratic in nature.- Glenn
I think this is no good Idea.....
The managment with short ressources is one very very important part of ME
PBM.....
If you have 3 or even more administration orders, you won�t have any problems
with managing having enough Charakters in your Capital doing sells and caranav
transport, while you have three armies in the field....
Greetings
Stefan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pinsonneault.1@osu.edu [mailto:pinsonneault.1@osu.edu]
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 1:46 PM
> To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [mepbmlist] 2nd Edition of mepbm: automate shipment orders?
>
>
> One idea is to automate some of the shipment orders. This could come
> in stronger or weaker forms, and it's interesting to think about what
> this would do.
>
> You could eliminate the 947 order completely. When you need
> leather/mounts/bronze/steel for troops, they could come proportionally
> from all of your population centers (much like the current 947 order),
> or maybe come from the local stock first and then pay a 10% shipping
> charge from other spots. This would lead to much more cavalry and
> armor/weapons (possibly even food and war machines!) and a more
> dynamic military game. (This would equalize the 1650 military game
> somewhat; given the dark metal production edge they could have a
> "quality" edge against the free "quantity" edge.)
>
> You could also give positions some fixed number of "free" 947 orders,
> which would accomplish much of the same stuff. The main impact would
> be to, again, allow more range in the kinds of troops recruited.
> Either of these would also lessen the impact of capital hits by
> agents.
>
> This could be extended to the natsell/prchcar/sellcar orders. This
> would again reduce agents while making the game simpler for new folks;
> I'm less sure this is a good idea. You really *do* want to have a way
> to drive people out of the game, and ecocide is one of the most common
> ways it happens.
>
> cheers,
>
> Marc Pinsonneault
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
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>
> 1)John (my buddy) had the ideas of a chief administrator. This
> character would have to order himself one turn to be the position. He
> would have to be in the capital, no one could challenge him, and he
> would be harder to kidnap and/or assissnate. He would be allowed to
> issue a limited amount of orders such as Improve or Downgrade
> relations, Change taxes, Sell good, and have them tranported.
>
Interesting thought, especially if he/she were excluded from certain
other orders. For that matter, certain classes should be excluded from
certain orders; a Mage buying steel just doesn't seem very, well,
magely. Come to think of it, a number of orders strike me as nation
orders, not character actions; perhaps a certain number of non-character
orders could be allowed regardless of the number or skills of characters
present. After all, presumably the army of bureaucrats is capable of
shipping stuff without Ming the Mighty to guide them, and it simply
doesn't make sense that a nation's capital cannot perform basic economic
functions without the direct personal intervention of its heroes.
RD: Disagree totally. You the player are the power behind the throne
(whichever one you've chosen or been lumbered with) and YOU are the chief
administrator. Why on earth d'you want to introduce a special new character
class to do mundane stuff when you can get any one of your minions to do it?
And why should he/she have any special advantages against challenge or
assass?
Stop mages from selling steel? Why? If you do this you are either a poor
player or a desperate one. No reason to change the rules!
In both history and legend, mages and priests frequently performed the
function of chief administrator: druids for pre-Christian Celtic kings,
Merlin for King Arthur, Bishop Turpin for Charlemagne, Cardinal Wolsey for
Henry VIII, Richelieu for Louis XIV of France, Rasputin to Czar Nicholas II
etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward A. Dimmick" <dukefenton@earthlink.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] 2nd Edition of 1650 mepbm
lucasc68@yahoo.com wrote:
> 2) Why is it that a Troll(Evil HI for some postions) has the same
> attack/con as a dwarf with a battle axe or a Beornling footman w/axe.
> Can't the troop levels be modified.
>
Costs would have to be adjusted as well; for example, Mumakil presumably
take more steel to armor up than the average elf. Then you get into
things like cost of upkeep, loyalty, etc. and it can get very hairy.> 5) Does every battle end in slaughter for one side. One of the
> greatest defeats in military history inflicted on a nation was in 216
> BC at Cannae. Hanibal completely surronded a Roman army of 4 double
> legions (about 80,000) and inflicted 55000 dead. 25000 still got away.
> This battle is the most decisive double envelopements ever and still
> the enemy lived.
>
The idea is that those not killed will flee, desert, generally break and
run for the hills, so they're as good as gone. A more 'realistic' model
would be to compare % loss to morale, but that gets complicated -
especially when it comes to the question of where the fleeing army goes.-ED \1/
Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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Again replying to the battle of annihilation. When the morale issue is
considered, just look at the American Civil War. By 1863 the myth of
Lee's invincibility was at its hight. In May of that year Lee
encounted the 123000 Army of the Potomac with his 65000 effectives.
The myth of Lee caused Hooker to get gunshy, the inital plan was good
but Hooker lost his nerve. Jackson's attack on Hookers right flank won
Lee the battle. But 2 months later the same Army of the Potomac
encounted Lee's now 75000 at a little town in southern Pennsylvania
called Gettysburg.
RD: For the umpteenth time, ME battles do NOT result in annihilation! Read
the battle report, any battle report. The defeated army is
destroyed/routed. The army is defeated with probably only a few casualties,
the rest rout, the army is destroyed. The routed troops flee back home
where they can be recruited again next turn. What is wrong with this
simple, workable concept and why is it so difficult to understand?
The retreat option is probably the best. What makes this work is the
fact that real tactics can be employed. A better general uses terrain
to his advantage. Henry at Agincourt Leonidis at Thermopolye (the 600
Spartans vs the Persian Army),and Hannibal at his lake. While this
cannot just be a commander rank difference exclusive (Gothmog would
whoop up on the Eothraim) it should be factored in.As for the opposition for the Head Bureaucrat position and that a king
is in charge. Through history, most Tolkien grade monarchs (High
Renissance) had huge courts that ran the day to day affairs of a
kingdon. Few monarchs bothered themselves with details of home much
grain need to be in town x. He just told a minister to make it
happen.While gaining personal honor on the battlefield in something
(The game modifies morale for turn), have Celedhring challenge the
head paper pusher of Shriel Kain isn't to honorable.
RD:
1) the DS are NOT honourable. Tolkien makes this very clear.
2) maybe the head paper-pusher of Shrel-kain called Celedhring a Merchant
Banker (cockney rhyming slang but I'm sure our American friends can work it
out).
I like the armor looting option also.After Lake Trebia, Hannibal was
able to recover enough Roman mail shirts to improve the armor on his
libyan spearmen.What about artifacts. There should be a problem with overloading
artifacts on one character. Given the world of Tolkien, look at what
happened between Boromir and Frodo. If to many artifacts are combine
on a person, it should have an adverse effect. Also to trade of
starting artifacts, maybe a will roll should be involved. This would
prevent all 4 mage artifacts from going onto Celedrhing.
RD: Boromir and Frodo quarrelled over a single artifact, which is hardly
overloading. There already is an adverse effect if a character tries to
carry more than 6 artifacts - he drops some! What is the problem?
----- Original Message -----
From: <lucasc68@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:49 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: 2nd Edition of 1650 mepbm
I understand the learning curve that a more difficult game would
imploy. The 1st edition can still be around for newbies to explore.--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Edward A. Dimmick" <dukefenton@e...> wrote:
> lucasc68@y... wrote:
> >
> > 1)John (my buddy) had the ideas of a chief administrator. This
> > character would have to order himself one turn to be the position. He
> > would have to be in the capital, no one could challenge him, and he
> > would be harder to kidnap and/or assissnate. He would be allowed to
> > issue a limited amount of orders such as Improve or Downgrade
> > relations, Change taxes, Sell good, and have them tranported.
> >
> Interesting thought, especially if he/she were excluded from certain
> other orders. For that matter, certain classes should be excluded from
> certain orders; a Mage buying steel just doesn't seem very, well,
> magely. Come to think of it, a number of orders strike me as nation
> orders, not character actions; perhaps a certain number of non-character
> orders could be allowed regardless of the number or skills of characters
> present. After all, presumably the army of bureaucrats is capable of
> shipping stuff without Ming the Mighty to guide them, and it simply
> doesn't make sense that a nation's capital cannot perform basic economic
> functions without the direct personal intervention of its heroes.
>
> > 2) Why is it that a Troll(Evil HI for some postions) has the same
> > attack/con as a dwarf with a battle axe or a Beornling footman w/axe.
> > Can't the troop levels be modified.
> >
> Costs would have to be adjusted as well; for example, Mumakil presumably
> take more steel to armor up than the average elf. Then you get into
> things like cost of upkeep, loyalty, etc. and it can get very hairy.
>
> > 5) Does every battle end in slaughter for one side. One of the
> > greatest defeats in military history inflicted on a nation was in 216
> > BC at Cannae. Hanibal completely surronded a Roman army of 4 double
> > legions (about 80,000) and inflicted 55000 dead. 25000 still got away.
> > This battle is the most decisive double envelopements ever and still
> > the enemy lived.
> >
> The idea is that those not killed will flee, desert, generally break and
> run for the hills, so they're as good as gone. A more 'realistic' model
> would be to compare % loss to morale, but that gets complicated -
> especially when it comes to the question of where the fleeing army goes.
>
> -ED \1/Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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Would these changes actually improve the game though?
Clint
RD: Well spotted Clint. It's one thing to make changes which would improve
the game, but change for the sake of change (or just because it says so in
some ICE or MERP publication) is definitely to be avoided. Note that altho
postal ME makes use of much ICE material, ICE is for role-players, postal ME
is for wargamers/powergamers, so there are bound to be differences. It is
quite possible that any differences between the two are intentional.
I am all for improving what is an excellent game, but any changes should
meet the following criteria:
1) be consistent with Tolkien's writings
2) be as far as possible, realistic, within the context of fantasy gaming.
3) should NOT make the game more complex or difficult to play.
> > 1)John (my buddy) had the ideas of a chief administrator. This
> > character would have to order himself one turn to be the position. He
> > would have to be in the capital, no one could challenge him, and he
> > would be harder to kidnap and/or assissnate. He would be allowed to
> > issue a limited amount of orders such as Improve or Downgrade
> > relations, Change taxes, Sell good, and have them tranported.
> >
> Interesting thought, especially if he/she were excluded from certain
> other orders. For that matter, certain classes should be excluded from
> certain orders; a Mage buying steel just doesn't seem very, well,
> magely. Come to think of it, a number of orders strike me as nation
> orders, not character actions; perhaps a certain number of non-character
> orders could be allowed regardless of the number or skills of characters
> present. After all, presumably the army of bureaucrats is capable of
> shipping stuff without Ming the Mighty to guide them, and it simply
> doesn't make sense that a nation's capital cannot perform basic economic
> functions without the direct personal intervention of its heroes.
>
> > 2) Why is it that a Troll(Evil HI for some postions) has the same
> > attack/con as a dwarf with a battle axe or a Beornling footman w/axe.
> > Can't the troop levels be modified.
> >
> Costs would have to be adjusted as well; for example, Mumakil presumably
> take more steel to armor up than the average elf. Then you get into
> things like cost of upkeep, loyalty, etc. and it can get very hairy.
>
> > 5) Does every battle end in slaughter for one side. One of the
> > greatest defeats in military history inflicted on a nation was in 216
> > BC at Cannae. Hanibal completely surronded a Roman army of 4 double
> > legions (about 80,000) and inflicted 55000 dead. 25000 still got away.
> > This battle is the most decisive double envelopements ever and still
> > the enemy lived.
> >
> The idea is that those not killed will flee, desert, generally break and
> run for the hills, so they're as good as gone. A more 'realistic' model
> would be to compare % loss to morale, but that gets complicated -
> especially when it comes to the question of where the fleeing army goes.
>
> -ED \1/
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] 2nd Edition of 1650 mepbm
>
>Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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Having too many style of games out there will slow down set-ups (one of
the
major reasons for drop outs - "took too long to get my position back" -
checking through the DGE I was shocked to see how long some players had
been
waiting for games). I think having 1650 1,2,3wk, 2950 1&2wk, 1000 & 1000
NKA & 1000 (cheesey) 1&2wk, grudge games (10 or 12?), and Last Alliance, &
Wotr then having newbie versions - well I hope you get my point. (Throw
in
the "I will ONLY play Noldo, 2950 12 a side with 1 wk turnaround opposite
to
the other game that I play on a Friday" and we're into trying to please
everyone and not pleasing anyone territory.)So I think the answer might be then to have this only as a 1650 varient
2wk
game - then allow nations to be either Apprentice or Journeyman (could
have
Master as well). Rules 1-25 for Apprentice, 30-60 for Journeymen (less
gold
or character stats - ie normal, implying newbies would have more Gold
and/or
stats, and Masters to have less.)
Thoughts?
Clint
RD: You've totally lost me here. What are you replying to? Most people are
quoting the entire thread, which is a damn pain, but you're not quoting
anything!
Why not apply the same criteria as you have done to new variants in the
recent past: if a guy can muster 20+ players who want to play it, and you
can make the changes, do it. If he can't or you can't, don't. Simple!
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 1:59 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: 2nd Edition of 1650 mepbm
The point of the job is not a new character but a positiion that a
character is assigned to. Somebody made the remark about have a mage
in his capital sell steel for the nation. He thought that was
inappropriate. As for the mage sell as an act of desperation or
incompetence, I guess you are the type of guy how prentice magery
every turn for Mardrash so that he can name 40 mages. I guess Mardrash
was never your tooken sap who did sales and tranfering for your position.
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Richard John Devereux" <devereux@l...> wrote:
From: "Edward A. Dimmick" <dukefenton@e...>
To: <mepbmlist@y...>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] 2nd Edition of 1650 mepbm> lucasc68@y... wrote:
> >
> > 1)John (my buddy) had the ideas of a chief administrator. This
> > character would have to order himself one turn to be the
position. He
> > would have to be in the capital, no one could challenge him, and he
> > would be harder to kidnap and/or assissnate. He would be allowed to
> > issue a limited amount of orders such as Improve or Downgrade
> > relations, Change taxes, Sell good, and have them tranported.
> >
> Interesting thought, especially if he/she were excluded from certain
> other orders. For that matter, certain classes should be excluded
from
> certain orders; a Mage buying steel just doesn't seem very, well,
> magely. Come to think of it, a number of orders strike me as nation
> orders, not character actions; perhaps a certain number of
non-character
> orders could be allowed regardless of the number or skills of
characters
> present. After all, presumably the army of bureaucrats is capable of
> shipping stuff without Ming the Mighty to guide them, and it simply
> doesn't make sense that a nation's capital cannot perform basic
economic
> functions without the direct personal intervention of its heroes.
RD: Disagree totally. You the player are the power behind the throne
(whichever one you've chosen or been lumbered with) and YOU are the
chief
administrator. Why on earth d'you want to introduce a special new
character
class to do mundane stuff when you can get any one of your minions
to do it?
And why should he/she have any special advantages against challenge or
assass?Stop mages from selling steel? Why? If you do this you are either
a poor
player or a desperate one. No reason to change the rules!
In both history and legend, mages and priests frequently performed the
function of chief administrator: druids for pre-Christian Celtic kings,
Merlin for King Arthur, Bishop Turpin for Charlemagne, Cardinal
Wolsey for
Henry VIII, Richelieu for Louis XIV of France, Rasputin to Czar
Nicholas II
etc.
>
> > 2) Why is it that a Troll(Evil HI for some postions) has the same
> > attack/con as a dwarf with a battle axe or a Beornling footman
w/axe.
> > Can't the troop levels be modified.
> >
> Costs would have to be adjusted as well; for example, Mumakil
presumably
> take more steel to armor up than the average elf. Then you get into
> things like cost of upkeep, loyalty, etc. and it can get very hairy.
>
> > 5) Does every battle end in slaughter for one side. One of the
> > greatest defeats in military history inflicted on a nation was
in 216
> > BC at Cannae. Hanibal completely surronded a Roman army of 4 double
> > legions (about 80,000) and inflicted 55000 dead. 25000 still got
away.
> > This battle is the most decisive double envelopements ever and still
> > the enemy lived.
> >
> The idea is that those not killed will flee, desert, generally
break and
> run for the hills, so they're as good as gone. A more 'realistic'
model
> would be to compare % loss to morale, but that gets complicated -
> especially when it comes to the question of where the fleeing army
goes.
>
> -ED \1/
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
For the Umpteenth time. I know the battle report says destroyed
routed. The POINT I am trying to stress is that survivors do return to
fight again. I guess we should just tell Scipio Africanus that after
Cannae you are out of a job. And lets look at Tolkien's battles. Most
are long affairs that are outside of the parameters of the game. If a
battle last's x hours/days/minutes how is this reflected. The battle
of Dagorlad lasted month's with new troops and new tactics constantly
introduced. People fought, retreated, and returned again to fight.
What about the Hornburg, until the next day when anothter Rohan army
and the Ents showup is the battle decided. I know the wording in some
cases its for long periods, it does not work with the game time frame.
As for the head burecrat job, sorry but a person being a burecrat has
no time to worry about who is trying to pick a fight outside.
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Richard John Devereux" <devereux@l...> wrote:
From: <lucasc68@y...>
To: <mepbmlist@y...>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:49 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: 2nd Edition of 1650 mepbm> Again replying to the battle of annihilation. When the morale issue is
> considered, just look at the American Civil War. By 1863 the myth of
> Lee's invincibility was at its hight. In May of that year Lee
> encounted the 123000 Army of the Potomac with his 65000 effectives.
> The myth of Lee caused Hooker to get gunshy, the inital plan was good
> but Hooker lost his nerve. Jackson's attack on Hookers right flank won
> Lee the battle. But 2 months later the same Army of the Potomac
> encounted Lee's now 75000 at a little town in southern Pennsylvania
> called Gettysburg.RD: For the umpteenth time, ME battles do NOT result in
annihilation! Read
the battle report, any battle report. The defeated army is
destroyed/routed. The army is defeated with probably only a few
casualties,
the rest rout, the army is destroyed. The routed troops flee back home
where they can be recruited again next turn. What is wrong with this
simple, workable concept and why is it so difficult to understand?
>
> The retreat option is probably the best. What makes this work is the
> fact that real tactics can be employed. A better general uses terrain
> to his advantage. Henry at Agincourt Leonidis at Thermopolye (the 600
> Spartans vs the Persian Army),and Hannibal at his lake. While this
> cannot just be a commander rank difference exclusive (Gothmog would
> whoop up on the Eothraim) it should be factored in.
>
> As for the opposition for the Head Bureaucrat position and that a king
> is in charge. Through history, most Tolkien grade monarchs (High
> Renissance) had huge courts that ran the day to day affairs of a
> kingdon. Few monarchs bothered themselves with details of home much
> grain need to be in town x. He just told a minister to make it
> happen.While gaining personal honor on the battlefield in something
> (The game modifies morale for turn), have Celedhring challenge the
> head paper pusher of Shriel Kain isn't to honorable.
>
RD:
1) the DS are NOT honourable. Tolkien makes this very clear.
2) maybe the head paper-pusher of Shrel-kain called Celedhring a
Merchant
Banker (cockney rhyming slang but I'm sure our American friends can
work it
out).
>
> I like the armor looting option also.After Lake Trebia, Hannibal was
> able to recover enough Roman mail shirts to improve the armor on his
> libyan spearmen.
>
> What about artifacts. There should be a problem with overloading
> artifacts on one character. Given the world of Tolkien, look at what
> happened between Boromir and Frodo. If to many artifacts are combine
> on a person, it should have an adverse effect. Also to trade of
> starting artifacts, maybe a will roll should be involved. This would
> prevent all 4 mage artifacts from going onto Celedrhing.RD: Boromir and Frodo quarrelled over a single artifact, which is hardly
overloading. There already is an adverse effect if a character tries to
carry more than 6 artifacts - he drops some! What is the problem?
>
> I understand the learning curve that a more difficult game would
> imploy. The 1st edition can still be around for newbies to explore.
>
>
> --- In mepbmlist@y..., "Edward A. Dimmick" <dukefenton@e...> wrote:
> > lucasc68@y... wrote:
> > >
> > > 1)John (my buddy) had the ideas of a chief administrator. This
> > > character would have to order himself one turn to be the
position. He
> > > would have to be in the capital, no one could challenge him,
and he
> > > would be harder to kidnap and/or assissnate. He would be
allowed to
> > > issue a limited amount of orders such as Improve or Downgrade
> > > relations, Change taxes, Sell good, and have them tranported.
> > >
> > Interesting thought, especially if he/she were excluded from certain
> > other orders. For that matter, certain classes should be
excluded from
> > certain orders; a Mage buying steel just doesn't seem very, well,
> > magely. Come to think of it, a number of orders strike me as nation
> > orders, not character actions; perhaps a certain number of
non-character
> > orders could be allowed regardless of the number or skills of
characters
> > present. After all, presumably the army of bureaucrats is
capable of
> > shipping stuff without Ming the Mighty to guide them, and it simply
> > doesn't make sense that a nation's capital cannot perform basic
economic
> > functions without the direct personal intervention of its heroes.
> >
> > > 2) Why is it that a Troll(Evil HI for some postions) has the same
> > > attack/con as a dwarf with a battle axe or a Beornling footman
w/axe.
> > > Can't the troop levels be modified.
> > >
> > Costs would have to be adjusted as well; for example, Mumakil
presumably
> > take more steel to armor up than the average elf. Then you get into
> > things like cost of upkeep, loyalty, etc. and it can get very hairy.
> >
> > > 5) Does every battle end in slaughter for one side. One of the
> > > greatest defeats in military history inflicted on a nation was
in 216
> > > BC at Cannae. Hanibal completely surronded a Roman army of 4
double
> > > legions (about 80,000) and inflicted 55000 dead. 25000 still
got away.
> > > This battle is the most decisive double envelopements ever and
still
> > > the enemy lived.
> > >
> > The idea is that those not killed will flee, desert, generally
break and
> > run for the hills, so they're as good as gone. A more
'realistic' model
> > would be to compare % loss to morale, but that gets complicated -
> > especially when it comes to the question of where the fleeing
army goes.
> >
> > -ED \1/
>
>
>
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----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
>It would be my call then. If there were no obvious desire either way
then
>it stays the same... Democralazy in action. 51% would come under that -
no
>change.
How about if 51% of your customer base responded to Democralazy in
action by taking their money elsewhere?
*** Player do that often - not sure how to answer that - if say 50% say
Agents must be removed, or 50% say they must stay then no dialogue might be
appropriate. Normally things can be negotiated though.
C
Effectively the same in game terms - you don't have an army left at the end
of the battle. 
RD: For the umpteenth time, ME battles do NOT result in annihilation!
Read
the battle report, any battle report. The defeated army is
destroyed/routed.
Richard John Devereux wrote:
Stop mages from selling steel? Why? If you do this you are either a poor
player or a desperate one. No reason to change the rules!In both history and legend, mages and priests frequently performed the
function of chief administrator: druids for pre-Christian Celtic kings,
Merlin for King Arthur, Bishop Turpin for Charlemagne, Cardinal Wolsey for
Henry VIII, Richelieu for Louis XIV of France, Rasputin to Czar Nicholas II
etc.
Perhaps so, but it didn't take them two weeks to say, 'Bring all the
steel from our camps' did it? How many bishops would have to miss
performing Mass because they were busy selling turnips? A character
only gets two orders, and it would stand to reason they should be
'character' work, not administration.
Put this another way: Suppose someone sneaks into Washington DC and offs
the President, Vice President, and half the cabinet. Is the nation then
incapable of importing or exporting goods until a new Secretary of State
is named? Do trucks sit idle on the highways waiting for direct
instructions from the Secretary of Commerce? It just doesn't make
sense.
-ED \1/