Hi,
I'm a new player and I've been watching this list silently for
sometime now, and it is funny that my first presence here has nothing
to do with the game.
The most interesting thing in this ongoing discussion is the
diversity of opinions I read. It's very educating to see the
different apprehension of reality from everyone. Colin you are right
that this list is not the best place to address such matters but I
can't resist.
History shows that every civilization at its brightest moments had at
the same time some of its darkest moments.
Ancient Greeks founded democracy and modern thought but also kept
women locked, kept slaves, and did kill Socrates. For the history
lovers among you I remind the destruction of the island of Delos from
Golden age ancient Athens. Alexander's the Great path through Asia
did transfer the Greek culture and values to the depths of Asia but
did it through some of the bloodiest and more savage battles in
history. A parenthesis here to underline that Muslim Arabs
transferred back that knowledge to Europe (Aristotle's thought and
works became known through them), a fact not known widely, and it
should be heard at this difficult times that Islam is being portrayed
as the darkest thing in human history. The list can go on for ever,
the "Christian" crusades, the Spanish loot through Latin America
(entirely wiped out Aztec and Incas civilisations), the genocide of
American Indians, British and French colonial policies, Algeria,
Falkland wars, Vietnam, and so on and so on...
Arrogance goes hand to hand with power and wealth, bigotry with self-
righteousness and as Socrates said with the greatest sin of all,
ignorance.
Every country that had power in it's hands defined global policy as
take as much as we can and make them see the right way (i.e.: our
way). The Brits were a fine example, not that us Greeks were better
( ..well we were a bit better :-).
America as an offspring of Europe in it's awakening to power has
displayed all the good and all the sins of their ancestors. This is
why I think our American friends World Leadership is a funny
idea..and as I was writing this lines this mail arrived and all hope
for keeping this short vanished..
>--- In mepbmlist@y..., CANNFB@M... wrote:
> and on the day before Thanksgiving, even!
>......The European solution to most of the problems they have with
the US
> is some sort of world government or other organization whose
> existence is designed to keep the "big bully" US in line. Any
such
> organization always ends up being largely anti-US (i.e. the UN)...
Now this is the most interesting description of the UN that I've ever
heard (read).
To my understanding the UN role IS to prevent EVERY Nation from
others attempts to, and I'm quoting, forfeit any part of its national
sovereignty. One could argue that the reason that US has repeatedly
pushed aside the UN is because it was preventing THEM from
intervening to other nation's national sovereignty.
> ....Americans have always been willing to take on the greatest
portion of
> any task we perform within the international community, often to
our
> detriment. Look at Somalia, Kosovo, and the Gulf War as the most
> recent examples. We have lost thousands of soldiers in faraway
lands
> (and civilians here at home) trying to protect and help people
for
> little or no gain...
These are troubled waters you are sailing in and I will not comment
them beyond saying that at the very least the US role to those areas
is severely questioned and disputed even within your country. It
would be interesting and educational to see things from another
perspective and read some of the material of Gore Vidal, Noam
Chomsky, Robert Fisk that easily come to mind.
> ..As the lone remaining superpower we have that
> responsibility and we accept it. All we ask is that our friends
help
> us out as much as possible and not be unduly critical in the way
we
> perform a job they are unable (and often unwilling) to take on
> themselves.
I'm not quite sure who asked you to :), and I'm very sure that I
don't want an American government that I never vote for (hell more
than 55% of Americans did not bother to vote for either) taking
initiatives in the world arena as if it was its back yard. The UN may
have a lot of weaknesses but it is the best alternative we have.
There is plenty of room for improvements for sure, let's concentrate
on that.
Anyway the World does not need a Leader, it needs a more sincere
communication between countries, a little less greed, a little more
tolerance etc etc (lets not make it corny).
>..We are all heartened
> by the world's response to 9/11, and we wish we see such support
more often.
There is no sound person that would not condemn such actions. One can
have all the differences of the world with the American policies and
governments but such tragic human loss is cruel and unjustifiable.
Pain is a universal constant and can be understood by everyone.
> I wish everyone a happy holiday season.
Amen to that (lets hope that this will also apply to the Ramadan)
Thank you for your patience if you read this far
Symeon Gavalas
--- In mepbmlist@y..., Colin Forbes <colin@t...> wrote:
Hi,
Chris Courtiour wrote
> Just in case anybody gets offended, I am a certified of Advocate
from
> the College of Devilry!
Having known Chris for, oh ages, I can in fact confirm that he is
hiding his light under a bushel with this statement. In fact, he
holds PhD in 'Devils Advocacy' from the Infernal University and has
since gone on to teach a variety of courses at that selfsame
institution.
Happily for some people who have posted some interesting opinions
subsequent to Chris, I am currently on sabbatical from my own post at
the Infernal University. Otherwise the ignorance shown by some of the
correspondants to this list would really annoy me - toi the extent
I'd have to say something outrageous just so they have the
opportunity to display their ignorance again.
As it is, my stress levels have been raised by agreeing with both
Chris and Laurence (a very unnatural situation for me to be in). So I
won't go on - except for a plea for people to get their facts right
and not make wildly incorrect claims about percentages of foreign
aid, pollution generated etc - if anyone wants to get into the
ecological argument, then by all means let's do so - but
perhaps off list?
Finally, can I associate myself totally with Matthew Riley
> Bruce Raymond wrote (amongst other things): "We have given freely
more in our short history to
> the rest of the world than any other civilization. "
>
> What arrogant, pretentious nonsense!
Remember Mathhew, American civilisation is largely living in
reservations.
···
Ooops.
Colin.
