I don’t think you can call it cheating since someone else was sloppy. However to join the group and use this information to me says the persons that did this are piss-poor players. They obviously lack the requisite skill to win on their own. I can probably beat most 3-year olds in a game of one-on-one since I am 6"2" and played basketball most of my life. However what is the use of beating a 3-year old in anything. I would drop this game on either side and make a note to not play with those players again.
it might not be cheating but i could then call you a big giant piece of **** and at least have that in my favor…i was an idiot and you were an asshole i know which i would rather be, because one is faultless.
wait wait wait kind of the Jason William syndrome one would say to others if something was broken so he could say he won with all odds against him. and the other hiding all so he could win at all costs.
It’s black and white for me. Looking at your opponent’s cards is cheating. I would never play against such opponents.
Also, finding real-life equivalents for game situations scares me a bit (see Midway and real-war examples above). Yes, in real war people would ‘cheat’ to see your cards. Then again, they would probably also kill you to see your cards. So do we follow real-life war examples or not? As was mentioned above, the game provides for military inteligence by espionage and scout orders. (and even by perceive secrets and rumours)
Real wars are never ‘balanced’ and when they are it is by pure chance. MEPBM is a game and it is supposed to be balanced as much as is possible. It is balanced because in a balanced game the best (and luckiest) side wins and a lot of folks seem to enjoy that. When you have access to the other side’s cards the balance is tilted to your favour. So is buying your GM a few beers so that he magically creates a few HC armies outside your enemy’s capital. (but then again you will probably claim that ‘courting the higher powers is sound diplomacy’ ). Or doing anything else outside the game’s scope.
Realpolitik is covered in the game by things such as agent and emissary orders, courting the neutrals (in non-grudge games) and hell, even with the ability to attack your allies. In my opinion things outside the game are not realpolitik, they are cheating
Hmm, comparing ME to real life is a bit worrying. “cheating” in war could mean the difference between 100s or 1000s of lives lost or saved. Cheating in a game is just that and most of us left it behind in the playground.
Hmmm I would have taken that turns info and had a look, then posted the site that their fly is down. A one off gain of very usefull information and alerting the oposition to the fact that that information has been looked at. It allows the oposition to take steps to rectify the situation and take actions to ensure the information gained will not be relevant for long. Using that back door for several turns is blatant cheating and not in the spirit of any form of fair contest.
Note, if ever you, as a player, have a question you can always ask us. There are some things in the game that some players will see differently to others and we’ve got a wide and deep range of experiences that can help with moral dilemmas, rulings etc.
I feel it is wrong (and in this hypnothetical case, I could take the role of the guy whose list was accessed, and thus be biased).
You are at fault for leaving your house unlocked, but the guy who comes in and steals you blind is the criminal.
In game spying (even through talking on the phone and garnering info) is fine, list spying is outside the realm of the game IMO.
Putting moral cues aside, it is also wrong because people are paying (especially in 4th age games) for a level of fog of war, which this removes.
Also, regardless of fault, if your discovered, it is likely the otherside could just quit in protest, causing a collapsed game and less fun for everyone. So the risk to the fun of the game is too high IMO, outside of moral grounds.
Finally, even if it was deemed ok, I would feel it would be inapporpriate for test games, where new rules, not the ability to secure a yahoo site, are the primary components of the game to be tested.
great thread.
might even involve a game i am in. different people respond in different ways when presented with these decisions. depends on your personal morale code, and to a greater extent whats most important to each person in playing these games. if winning is the only way you’ll enjoy playing, then look. if a well played game with an unknown outcome is most desirable, advise the other side of their problem. in the end, both the decison and its result are entirely in your control. whatever the result, its your decision
for my part, in a case of mepbm, a lie of ommission is still a lie. a well played defeat is preferable to a victorious rout.
In real life things are different . When at war stakes are completely different. Is that not what some find hard to understand. Isn’t that why the victim…US/UK are now being portrayed as the criminal.
I must ask you the same question w/o the rationaliyzing.
If I sat with you to play cards, you turned your head and I looked at your cards, what would you call it?
And worse yet what if i won? Would you shake my hand and say good game?
I am trying to play an honest game not justify why someone was searching the internet looking for enemy sites.
I am glad you are out of the game, for even now you fail to see where you were wrong.
Maybe now you will not ruin it for players like myself that want a gentlemen’s game, where one can take a moment away from lies in the media, allies betraying you to sell arms to Iran, corporate interests abandoning the very nation that made them wealthy, and fat spoiled brats from Ivy leagues and Oxfords that tell us this is how real life is!!!
Begone cheater and do not waste any more peoples time whining about the fact you were caught.
If you wish to make evil good and good evil I have no more time for you.
Go write for AlJazeera.
In real life things are different . When at war stakes are completely different. Is that not what some find hard to understand. Isn’t that why the victim…US/UK are now being portrayed as the criminal.
I must ask you the same question w/o the rationaliyzing.
If I sat with you to play cards, you turned your head and I looked at your cards, what would you call it?
And worse yet what if i won? Would you shake my hand and say good game?
I am trying to play an honest game not justify why someone was searching the internet looking for enemy sites.
I am glad you are out of the game, for even now you fail to see where you were wrong.
Maybe now you will not ruin it for players like myself that want a gentlemen’s game, where one can take a moment away from lies in the media, allies betraying you to sell arms to Iran, corporate interests abandoning the very nation that made them wealthy, and fat spoiled brats from Ivy leagues and Oxfords that tell us this is how real life is!!!
Begone cheater and do not waste any more peoples time whining about the fact you were caught.
If you wish to make evil good and good evil I have no more time for you.
Go write for AlJazeera.
Someone got it right: Different people play this games for different reasons.
Some play to win at all costs. They are self-focused. They show little concern for others. We learn who these players are over time and avoid them. They run up their individual nation scores at the expense of their team’s goals and strategic needs. They rank highly on individual nation scores in the MEPBM ratings, but not on the respected by team mates or enemies ratings.
Others play the game to match wits against talented opposition. They play for their team to win. Their own nation’s success is important, but their team’s success is paramount.
I aspire to be in this second category, and to play with and against folks in this second category. It’s actually easier to beat a team built out of the first class of folks than the second. As has been said, a hollow victory is nowhere near as satisfying as a well-fought, tooth & nail biter game, of which the outcome was in question until the very end (win or lose).
My vote with respect to the original question:
it’s not illegal
but it ruins the game for everyone else. Thus it’s very selfish, foolish, and downright stupid.
Ed Mills’ analogy to real life wartime decision making is specious. No lives are at stake. No peoples’ freedom is at stake. It’s a game. And the rules do not stipulate that it is a free-for-all in terms of internet hackery, spying, etc. If such a special game were to be started, where hacking was agreed upon as allowable up-front, then go for it. Such is not the case.
I personally find much of the fun in this game is trying to figure out what the opposition is going to do & then planning/playing accordingly. Being given their plans on a silver platter ruins the fun. After all, what is the point of this if it isn’t fun?
On a slightly lighter note, my 1st ever PBM experience was a handmoderatored strategy game, run by a friends brother who had come across such things @ Uni, all based in a StarfleetBattles environment.
I was Federation, specially chosen to because of my plodding overbearing nature (was I really like that at 16?). Some of my crazier buddies were Gorn etc, while my mate’s brothers chums were Romulans and Klingons and stuff. Not being into Trek, this was all mostly over my head but I has 16 and dead excited. I didnt know any of the people i was playing against and the whole concept of the thing was just blowing my Risk-enslaved mind.
On the Saturday i got my first turn and my mate and I were talking about it and our plans @ the cinema waiting for the film to start. At the end of the film we stood up to walk out, and the guys sitting directly in front of us turned around and introduced themselves - it was Klingon Chris and Romulan Rob, who had overheard our whole conversation. What are the chances of that…
Back to the point: i guess as Ed pointed out, in real life situations I guess you would try to employ any (just about) means necessary. But happily, this game isnt real life. I mean, who would enjoy a win from those circumstances? Hell, I am in a gunboat at the moment where, unwillngly i have ended up playing 3 positions, it is definitely an advantage (10% advantage? 20% advantage?) and although i was already prevailing vs my regional foes, i cant take the same morale righteousness from my victory as I was intending too To win by having the inside information on otherwise worthy foes? Ug.
Summary,
probably not illegal (the rules themselves do seem to allow it) but the majority see it as immoral. (lots of cases like that in real life:) )
I reckon the best thing has been that the vast majority thus far, want to play for the game and its’ twists and strategy, not merely win at any cost. Keeps me keen to play and experience in-game twists, the kind we are paying to have. I’d certainly rather go down in an exciting slug fest with lots of team planning and interaction than get the oppoents data, make direct counter moves and have a predictable boring and likely bitter victory.
sorry if you find a site that you know is supposed to be a closed site and it is open and you are the opposition, you should tell the oposition post haste. plain and simple. we do all spend money on this game. If some one screwed up and made it open dont make 9 other people pay hard earned money on some one elses mistake.
I don’t think I am the person who you need to be directing your attacks against. Not to say that I am a saint, but is your anger stemming from a 2950 or 1000 game? I only ask beacuse of a thread you started about game 21. This thread stems from FA game 43. That is not to say that the points which have been made wouldn’t bear weight here or elsewhere.
No matter really, as I have no problem with being at the eye of anyone’s rage on this issue.
Can I blame you me screwing up which army a dragon went to, costing my team Goblin Gate in another totally unrelated game? I think that would be appropriate, if possible. Also, my taxes are coming up, and I think you seem to be a good place to direct that … :o
In my experience, if you need to ask advice as to whether something is “immoral” or “cheating”, its normally because you suspect that it might be and subconciously you feel uncomfortable with it. People tend not to ask for clarification on something that they instinctively feel to be right - why would you?
I feel little discomfort. The problems which have plagued my psyche are/were:
A) I still don’t think what I did was wrong or in anyway cheating (not to say that I will do this again…I won’t). Furthermore, I am glad to see that this thread has helped others see thier potential OPSEC mistakes. OPSEC, now there’s an acronym I haven’t seen in years! Thanks for the stroll down memory lane!
B) I wanted to know how others outside the game felt about the issue (now I do).
C) I wondered what others would do/want done to resolve the issue (not much input there, but enough to think I did the right thing by dropping). The main reason I dropped was when I learned that the offended party may have wanted information from several DS similar to that which was retained by myself alone. If it were not for that, I would have slugged it out for the five or so turns it would have taken to crush me.
D) I want to make sure that Phlather understands that, though I may be (well, acording to the group… am) an asshole, I may not be his asshole.
). Or doing anything else outside the game’s scope.