One day while setting up a yahoo group for an upcoming game (FA joining solo), you decide to see if there are any other groups in the “games” catagory with the the phrase “mepbm” in the title. Alas, there before your very eyes is a vision of wonder… a publicly accessible group dedicated to the opposing team of your very same game!
So, you ghost the postings for a few weeks and decide to join the group a few times and download the available information. Complete nation set ups and so forth. You then, upon the start of the game, allow the members of your team access to the area where the opposing teams data is stored.
Now, putting aside how my own personal experience in this scenario, what are your thoughts on this? Is this in your opinion cheating? Does this take away from the intent, or even the flavor of the game? If you were the team who left the door open, would you cry foul, or rather accept the situation as it was? If you on the team who could view this data, what would you do? If you were the “guilty party” (though what I was guilty of exactly was never stated), what other than dropping could you do to make “everything all better”?
Players of the game in question and Me Games Ltd. please note, I am not trying to stir the pot of poo with this posting. I am simply trying to understand how, if at all, I went wrong in the eyes of those outside the game. And by that I mean those who gain or lose nothing with thier stand on the issue.
One time I was offered the pdf’s of the opposition, not knowing how they were obtained. I refused to see them. As for the rest of it, people will argue the technical definition of cheating vs. the spirit of it. The spirit of it is clearly cheating, but technically it may not be. I won’t pretend to know the rules in this situation. Morally it seems improper.
Personally, I’m looking for a challenge rather than an easy win. It’s going to be impossible for the enemy to play their A+ game if you have this kind of inside information.
Is it cheating? Not really. Does it take the shine off any victory? Absolutely.
Agree with Diehard. It is NOT cheating but it does take away some of the flavor of the game.
There are a lot of players out there, and people in the Real World, who don’t have the slightest comprehension of operational security. In the Real World they get real people killed and don’t even realize what they have done. In one Grudge game I know an individual who was expelled from a team because of this failing. He felt unfairly treated.
This sort of thing happens all the time. Send a game pdf to the wrong Group, leave a printed pdf on the table at a game convention, talk with unvetted persons about the game, ect.
Back in the 1920s there was a U.S. Xecretary of the Navy who said “gentlemen don’t read other gentlemen’s mail” as he disbanded the Navy’s sigint section. Fortunately he was replaced and that section won the Battle of Midway every much as the brave sailors and naval aviators.
This IS a wargame. This IS an amoral Real Politik. Persons who like to strike noble poses had better not send my sons and grandsons into combat.
I agree with the general sentiments there Ed, but this is a fantasy game and I doubt the guy who set up a fantasy PBM game thread is making life or death decisions regarding it. Unless one thinks so highly of Elrond as a real person. Interesting about the Navy thing, but does that mean if you could read another teams pdf, you would, because it is Real Politik and a wargame?
Any intelligence gained through game methods is fine, any gained from the “real world” is cheating, simple really.
Within ME then any scout, scry,double agent etc is fine but to use “real” info gained is plain wrong.
No fence sitting for me on this one !
Thanks to all who have, or will, post on this issue. Reasonable men can disagree.
One of the things I admire about the Stassun/Feild creation is how flexible and ‘realistic’ it can be. In the worlds I come from the knives were real and i always find it entertaining when I can apply some of my life’s lessons to it.
All it takes is for a player to spend two seconds and ask himself “Is this wise, is this secure?”. People being people often don’t do that. By all means act honorably. Just understand if you don’t act wisely you might be victimized. We protect children from their misjudgements but adults are on their own.
As for the game creators’ intent consider this (cites are from the GSI 7th edition Rulebook 1996):
Players may misrepresent themselves (page 1, right column last paragraph). Espionage is allowed and is unrestricted (p 17 right 1st para). Players may engage is subterfuge (p 61 right 1st para) and communicater and strike agreements with the enemy (p 61 right last para). All this is in conformity with the Epic. Rangers on mysterious covert missions, The Enemy’s spies and subversive efforts. Rohan has a pact with Sarumen, etc, etc.
This game can be played on many levels. By all means play on the level that gives you the most enjoyment. Just understand that is not the only level that exists.
I agree with John on this one. The game is just a game - accessing data from opponents yahoogroup is IMO not part of the contest. Its like looking at your opponents cards while they’re in restroom - just because its easy or possible to do, doesnt make it right - and it ruins game.
In game 75 Brian (CL) told us he could get access to our site, and we were very grateful that he told us of this lapse in security. If he hadnt done so, the game would have been wrecked.
Arguing that its ok to access opponents yahoogroups is like arguing that computer security is part of mepbm. IMO it shouldnt be. You could then argue that hacking into someones computer, stealing their mail or beating the password out the poor bugger would be ok - gamewise that is.
Skage
I dont think Ed’s rebuttal cites are quite applicable to Johnstrac’s hypothesis. If the enemy could be fooled into giving up the info then absolutely it’s well played. But an accidental slip, even a foolish one should be forgiven. I would compare it to fighting. In boxing if the opponent slips and falls you give them the opportunity to recover. In a street fight you kick him while he’s down. I would rather feel that a game is more boxing-like, and I would have brought the over sight to the enemy’s attention.
As for the comparison to the navy, that is the atttitude that the characters in the game should have to their troops. But we as players have the luxury of god like insulation. We can be magnanimous and the worst penalty we could suffer is a loss. That cost is what I weigh against my ‘morality’, and so I choose the high road…
Skage: Hey this reminds me that in game 50 our BS accidentally sent his pdf to your team’s Easterling. He was so abashed by that he quit (going bankrupt) rather than tell us. You folks didn’t tell us either. See nothing wrong with what you, or your side did, just be careful on the noble poses.
Ed
I think it is cheating. In all aspects of life their is cheating. I would simply decline to play in any games you were involved in, be it on my side or the other side.
In the context that this is a game. I think that you should point out to them the total failure of their security. Otherwise what challenge would you have in playing them.
I played in a game where some of the emails of our team were beings sent to the other side. The people who did this claimed that it was an honest mistake/oversight on their part. The fact that it was being done made the other side suspicious that they were in fact being set up. However when they tracked things for awhile they realized it was in fact a lapse in OPSEC such as Ed has said. They were able to take advantage of this information in a couple of cases. When finally asked if we had a leak, like gentlemen they fessed up and the leak was plugged. This caused a lot of distrust and hard feelings on that side with the leaker.
So while I would not say it was cheating to take advantage of lax security by your opponents. I do think it would ruin the challenge of the game it happened in.
Thank you for this discussion. Upon checking, the brand new yahoo group I just set up for my next game a few days ago was also open to the public. Imagine my suprise when I found that anyone could have joined and downloaded anything I had on the site. Since I am the moderator of my group, I have since closed the group access to just invited members. I checked the logs to see if anyone uninvited had joined but no one had. For research purposes I searched the yahoo groups website and I have also found TWO other groups that have OPEN archives so I could read their latest postings up to and including a few minutes ago. I will try to contact those people so that they might know that their mail can be read by anyone. I feel that anything you can learn in the game is fair and square but to read the messages off of the enemies website is cheating to me as that is “out of the game.” That’s my thoughts, and gentlemen can agree to disagree.
Regardless of the opinions on either side, as there is no “truth” here, it would taint the game on so many levels for so many people. Noble poses prove hypocritical and many never get to realize the defenders of “all’s fair…” are likley more noble than most. There is no winning here…
From my memory: our team in g50 discussed it openly - you had access to the email correspondence from that game - and told the BS that he accidentally posted his orders (not pdf to my knowledge) on the wrong yahoo group. We assumed that telling BS of his mistake was the right thing to do. Of course much damage was done, but we couldn’t undo that, but by telling him we would at least allow him be aware of the situation and act accordingly. It may seem odd to you, but the erroneously posted orders were not forwarded to the rest of the free team…I believe we had this discussion before, yes ?
The problem, with this “hypothetical” situation is that one takes out of game knowledge into gaming use. It’s one thing to make the other side send confidential data your way, it’s another to use computer knowledge, which maybe the other side lacks, for the same effect. The “caveat emptor” rules quoted above stems from days when internet was just a new thing, and yahoo groups unknown. Side note: It would be a good idea to put a sticky up which lay out basic yahoo groups’ security regulations for those who don’t know where to look, no one would then have any reason to cry foul.
Taking this “hypothetical” situation a bit further. Assuming this game to be a test one, would I be in your shoes, I’d gone to Clint with the data and let him rule whether or not it’s fine to use it. For tests games’ results to be effective, they require a modicum of fairness, or those results might be corrupted; and this may be beyond those boundaries, can’t really say though. Given one does not know all the involved players early on, it’s hard to find out what would their reaction be, some players takes it strongly, others shrugs it, only the referees knows.
I admit a major distrust of any ‘group’ for confidential discussions. I am old school and email directly.
Personally i have never browsed the site. Therefor hypothetically speaking, i wouldn’t look at the data and i would inform the group of their problem.
You want the best game you can get and this really makes less of the turn, it’s like opening all your christmas presents, having a play, then re-wrapping them putting back under the tree and wait for christmas. Surprise…
We have had experiences with in game errors and found that the teams we have played have been v.reasonable re delays, corrections etc in the interests of the game as we have tried to be in the reverse. Hollow victories are not something to strive for and spend money on
