Army disbands

Although I believe that game balance is the most important thing, always remember when making historical references...this world has magic. Magic effectively changes the rules of reality. Your same assessment, now, the Ring of Wind say, for instance, allows you to change into wind for a certain period of time (not unreasonable for an +40A artifact)...Suddenly that assassin getting away is quite a bit more likely. Consider the superstitious nature of the people, and the general beliefs on magic, now what happens when you make a magic like effect.

I do believe that an army should have a relative chance to catch the agent and injure/kill the agent. It should be a threat that you face when attempting to assassinate a man who leads an army. But the existence of magic changes what is possible, probably and likely. A good counter is a spell, call it "heightened awareness" which boosts scouts ability to find characters, or a guards ability to protect his charge...

···

From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@soltec.net>
Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:37:02 -0000

My .02.

Yes armies did collapse and disband after their commander was killed.
But not "huge" armies, the other commanders would assume command -
now some of the sub commanders might take their toys (soldiers) and
go home, but an entire "huge" army would not disband. Remember these
armies were the size of travelling cities. With that said, I don't
have a problem with armies going away with the loss of a lone
commander. It could be argued to be realistic and doesn't affect the
overall game that much.

However, agents going into an army a killing the commander and then
getting away scot free doesn't jive with most history/fiction. There
should be some additional risk to assassins - maybe these orders even
if successful should carry a higher risk of death if the victim was
travelling with an army, company or in a friendly pop center. A
player with a 150 agent might think twice about popping that huge
army commander if they knew that there was a good chance that the
army might string them up afterword. Many covert operations have been
considered "suicide" missions, this could be added to the game.

It appears to me that most people agree that the agents are too
important in this game Regardless of game balance, imho, offensive
agents are just too important to the game mechanics. Something should
be done to change - not game balance - emphasis on this one character
class. Also, I don't think the suggestion is to change one of the
existing game modules but to develop a new middle earth game. Don't
let game balance affect our suggestions or replies. I'm making the
assumption that the game will be balanced somehow and that all things
are possible.

Kevin

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:
> Given the medieval/ancients nature of ME combat, this is actually
> reasonable. Armies tended to be held together by force of will and
> dedication to the commander. Once the commander was gone (killed or
fled),
> the army did tend to disband (often at very high speed and
sometimes in
> mid-battle). Being the commander was quite a risky business: you
had to be
> at the front of the line in order for your troops to see you
fighting, but
> that put you right smack in the thick of the action. It's really
only since
> Marlborough's time that commanders have tended to stay away from
the battle
> itself, using subordinates to execute their orders and battle plans
while
> they watched from a nearby hill.
>
> As for assassinating the commander being difficult because he would
be
> well-known to the troops: I'm in two minds on this one. He would be
known
> and recognisable to his close associates, making assassination
difficult,
> but not by most of the troops, making infiltration easy. The run of
the mill
> soldiers would recognise him by his standard or by some other
highly visible
> sign. Get an army camp of five thousand men milling around and one
more
> unknown face isn't going to stand out.
>
> Gavin
>
> Steve Prindeville wrote:
>
> > The other thing I have not liked about army commander
assassinations is the
> > army disbanding. How likely is it that an army would break apart
and go home
> > when a commander is killed. Wouldn't their be lower level
> > commanders(non-coms) in the army?

Good Point! But then an agent with one of the magic baubles should
be working alone or lose, at least part of, the benefit.

Turning into wind or impersonating an enemy would not be as good if
there was other agents and commanders(company) around to alert the
guards

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Weed" <watakshi@h...>
wrote:

Although I believe that game balance is the most important thing,

always

remember when making historical references...this world has

magic. Magic

effectively changes the rules of reality. Your same assessment,

now, the

Ring of Wind say, for instance, allows you to change into wind for

a certain

period of time (not unreasonable for an +40A artifact)...Suddenly

that

assassin getting away is quite a bit more likely. Consider the
superstitious nature of the people, and the general beliefs on

magic, now

what happens when you make a magic like effect.

I do believe that an army should have a relative chance to catch

the agent

and injure/kill the agent. It should be a threat that you face

when

attempting to assassinate a man who leads an army. But the

existence of

magic changes what is possible, probably and likely. A good

counter is a

spell, call it "heightened awareness" which boosts scouts ability

to find

characters, or a guards ability to protect his charge...

>From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@s...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands
>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:37:02 -0000
>
>
>My .02.
>
>Yes armies did collapse and disband after their commander was

killed.

>But not "huge" armies, the other commanders would assume command -
>now some of the sub commanders might take their toys (soldiers)

and

>go home, but an entire "huge" army would not disband. Remember

these

>armies were the size of travelling cities. With that said, I don't
>have a problem with armies going away with the loss of a lone
>commander. It could be argued to be realistic and doesn't affect

the

>overall game that much.
>
>However, agents going into an army a killing the commander and

then

>getting away scot free doesn't jive with most history/fiction.

There

>should be some additional risk to assassins - maybe these orders

even

>if successful should carry a higher risk of death if the victim

was

>travelling with an army, company or in a friendly pop center. A
>player with a 150 agent might think twice about popping that huge
>army commander if they knew that there was a good chance that the
>army might string them up afterword. Many covert operations have

been

>considered "suicide" missions, this could be added to the game.
>
>It appears to me that most people agree that the agents are too
>important in this game Regardless of game balance, imho, offensive
>agents are just too important to the game mechanics. Something

should

>be done to change - not game balance - emphasis on this one

character

>class. Also, I don't think the suggestion is to change one of the
>existing game modules but to develop a new middle earth game.

Don't

>let game balance affect our suggestions or replies. I'm making the
>assumption that the game will be balanced somehow and that all

things

>are possible.
>
>Kevin
>
> > Given the medieval/ancients nature of ME combat, this is

actually

> > reasonable. Armies tended to be held together by force of will

and

> > dedication to the commander. Once the commander was gone

(killed or

>fled),
> > the army did tend to disband (often at very high speed and
>sometimes in
> > mid-battle). Being the commander was quite a risky business:

you

>had to be
> > at the front of the line in order for your troops to see you
>fighting, but
> > that put you right smack in the thick of the action. It's

really

>only since
> > Marlborough's time that commanders have tended to stay away

from

>the battle
> > itself, using subordinates to execute their orders and battle

plans

>while
> > they watched from a nearby hill.
> >
> > As for assassinating the commander being difficult because he

would

>be
> > well-known to the troops: I'm in two minds on this one. He

would be

>known
> > and recognisable to his close associates, making assassination
>difficult,
> > but not by most of the troops, making infiltration easy. The

run of

>the mill
> > soldiers would recognise him by his standard or by some other
>highly visible
> > sign. Get an army camp of five thousand men milling around and

one

>more
> > unknown face isn't going to stand out.
> >
> > Gavin
> >
> > Steve Prindeville wrote:
> >
> > > The other thing I have not liked about army commander
>assassinations is the
> > > army disbanding. How likely is it that an army would break

apart

···

>--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:
>and go home
> > > when a commander is killed. Wouldn't their be lower level
> > > commanders(non-coms) in the army?
>
>
>

But then on the other hand, if an agent can turn into wind(for a
short period) to complete his mission, should it really increase his
skill rank? When he gives his bauble away there shouldn't be any
residual skill left over from that artifact.

With the aid of the artifact the agent gets up to 100 and hands the
thing off, he still acts like he has the artifact since at 100 rank
he is almost unstoppable.

Maybe those agent artifacts have to have the concious effort(an
order) to use the artifact. A simple kill in a camp/village/town he
would not use the artifact and improve his skill. More dangerous
missions he issues the order to use artifact and the
assassinate/kidnap and is open to challenge. Only increases his
random skill increase at half normal, and if the skill was only a
one increase he does not increase at all.

I sure hope Clint & Co are up to programming all this...

Good Point! But then an agent with one of the magic baubles

should

be working alone or lose, at least part of, the benefit.

Turning into wind or impersonating an enemy would not be as good

if

there was other agents and commanders(company) around to alert the
guards

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Weed" <watakshi@h...>
wrote:
> Although I believe that game balance is the most important

thing,

always
> remember when making historical references...this world has
magic. Magic
> effectively changes the rules of reality. Your same assessment,
now, the
> Ring of Wind say, for instance, allows you to change into wind

for

a certain
> period of time (not unreasonable for an +40A

artifact)...Suddenly

that
> assassin getting away is quite a bit more likely. Consider the
> superstitious nature of the people, and the general beliefs on
magic, now
> what happens when you make a magic like effect.
>
> I do believe that an army should have a relative chance to catch
the agent
> and injure/kill the agent. It should be a threat that you face
when
> attempting to assassinate a man who leads an army. But the
existence of
> magic changes what is possible, probably and likely. A good
counter is a
> spell, call it "heightened awareness" which boosts scouts

ability

to find
> characters, or a guards ability to protect his charge...
>
>
> >From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@s...>
> >Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> >To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands
> >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:37:02 -0000
> >
> >
> >My .02.
> >
> >Yes armies did collapse and disband after their commander was
killed.
> >But not "huge" armies, the other commanders would assume

command -

> >now some of the sub commanders might take their toys (soldiers)
and
> >go home, but an entire "huge" army would not disband. Remember
these
> >armies were the size of travelling cities. With that said, I

don't

> >have a problem with armies going away with the loss of a lone
> >commander. It could be argued to be realistic and doesn't

affect

the
> >overall game that much.
> >
> >However, agents going into an army a killing the commander and
then
> >getting away scot free doesn't jive with most history/fiction.
There
> >should be some additional risk to assassins - maybe these

orders

even
> >if successful should carry a higher risk of death if the victim
was
> >travelling with an army, company or in a friendly pop center. A
> >player with a 150 agent might think twice about popping that

huge

> >army commander if they knew that there was a good chance that

the

> >army might string them up afterword. Many covert operations

have

been
> >considered "suicide" missions, this could be added to the game.
> >
> >It appears to me that most people agree that the agents are too
> >important in this game Regardless of game balance, imho,

offensive

> >agents are just too important to the game mechanics. Something
should
> >be done to change - not game balance - emphasis on this one
character
> >class. Also, I don't think the suggestion is to change one of

the

> >existing game modules but to develop a new middle earth game.
Don't
> >let game balance affect our suggestions or replies. I'm making

the

> >assumption that the game will be balanced somehow and that all
things
> >are possible.
> >
> >Kevin
> >
> > > Given the medieval/ancients nature of ME combat, this is
actually
> > > reasonable. Armies tended to be held together by force of

will

and
> > > dedication to the commander. Once the commander was gone
(killed or
> >fled),
> > > the army did tend to disband (often at very high speed and
> >sometimes in
> > > mid-battle). Being the commander was quite a risky business:
you
> >had to be
> > > at the front of the line in order for your troops to see you
> >fighting, but
> > > that put you right smack in the thick of the action. It's
really
> >only since
> > > Marlborough's time that commanders have tended to stay away
from
> >the battle
> > > itself, using subordinates to execute their orders and

battle

plans
> >while
> > > they watched from a nearby hill.
> > >
> > > As for assassinating the commander being difficult because

he

would
> >be
> > > well-known to the troops: I'm in two minds on this one. He
would be
> >known
> > > and recognisable to his close associates, making

assassination

> >difficult,
> > > but not by most of the troops, making infiltration easy. The
run of
> >the mill
> > > soldiers would recognise him by his standard or by some other
> >highly visible
> > > sign. Get an army camp of five thousand men milling around

and

one
> >more
> > > unknown face isn't going to stand out.
> > >
> > > Gavin
> > >
> > > Steve Prindeville wrote:
> > >
> > > > The other thing I have not liked about army commander
> >assassinations is the
> > > > army disbanding. How likely is it that an army would

break

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "sprindeville" <stevep@a...> wrote:

> >--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:
apart
> >and go home
> > > > when a commander is killed. Wouldn't their be lower level
> > > > commanders(non-coms) in the army?
> >
> >
> >

One other thing to remember is a turn was originally designed to be
fourteen days long. That's how long it took for one character to do
two orders. In my mind, an agent trying to assassinate an army
commander wouldn't walk into camp in broad daylight and try to gack
the commander; he would wait and watch until the commander was
vulnerable and he had plenty of time to do it.

Eventually, the commander would slip up and the better agent would be
able to take advantage of it. A less skilled agent would choose a
not-so-optimal time and would be lucky to get away in one piece.

Andy Sheppard

But the longer they hang around the more chance there is of them
being caught. While following the army the agents would have to
evade scouts and stay out of sight, unless they were just following
well behind. In that case the assassin would have relatively few
opportunities to complete his mission. Could take longer than 14
days to learn the commanders movements, and plan his attack.

One other thing to remember is a turn was originally designed to be
fourteen days long. That's how long it took for one character to do
two orders. In my mind, an agent trying to assassinate an army
commander wouldn't walk into camp in broad daylight and try to gack
the commander; he would wait and watch until the commander was
vulnerable and he had plenty of time to do it.

Eventually, the commander would slip up and the better agent would

be

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Andy Sheppard <vorcyon@g...> wrote:

able to take advantage of it. A less skilled agent would choose a
not-so-optimal time and would be lucky to get away in one piece.

Andy Sheppard

Yeah, an "Use agent/stealth" artifact could work. Not only would decresase the importance of agent artefacts, it would diminish the refusal of challenges and instill paranoia in agent-oriented nations....

        Still, something would have to be done to curse squads....

            Rodrigo Maia

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: sprindeville
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:06 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands

  But then on the other hand, if an agent can turn into wind(for a
  short period) to complete his mission, should it really increase his
  skill rank? When he gives his bauble away there shouldn't be any
  residual skill left over from that artifact.

  With the aid of the artifact the agent gets up to 100 and hands the
  thing off, he still acts like he has the artifact since at 100 rank
  he is almost unstoppable.

  Maybe those agent artifacts have to have the concious effort(an
  order) to use the artifact. A simple kill in a camp/village/town he
  would not use the artifact and improve his skill. More dangerous
  missions he issues the order to use artifact and the
  assassinate/kidnap and is open to challenge. Only increases his
  random skill increase at half normal, and if the skill was only a
  one increase he does not increase at all.

  I sure hope Clint & Co are up to programming all this...

  --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "sprindeville" <stevep@a...> wrote:
  >
  > Good Point! But then an agent with one of the magic baubles
  should
  > be working alone or lose, at least part of, the benefit.
  >
  > Turning into wind or impersonating an enemy would not be as good
  if
  > there was other agents and commanders(company) around to alert the
  > guards
  >
  > --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Weed" <watakshi@h...>
  > wrote:
  > > Although I believe that game balance is the most important
  thing,
  > always
  > > remember when making historical references...this world has
  > magic. Magic
  > > effectively changes the rules of reality. Your same assessment,
  > now, the
  > > Ring of Wind say, for instance, allows you to change into wind
  for
  > a certain
  > > period of time (not unreasonable for an +40A
  artifact)...Suddenly
  > that
  > > assassin getting away is quite a bit more likely. Consider the
  > > superstitious nature of the people, and the general beliefs on
  > magic, now
  > > what happens when you make a magic like effect.
  > >
  > > I do believe that an army should have a relative chance to catch
  > the agent
  > > and injure/kill the agent. It should be a threat that you face
  > when
  > > attempting to assassinate a man who leads an army. But the
  > existence of
  > > magic changes what is possible, probably and likely. A good
  > counter is a
  > > spell, call it "heightened awareness" which boosts scouts
  ability
  > to find
  > > characters, or a guards ability to protect his charge...
  > >
  > >
  > > >From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@s...>
  > > >Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  > > >To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  > > >Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands
  > > >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:37:02 -0000
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >My .02.
  > > >
  > > >Yes armies did collapse and disband after their commander was
  > killed.
  > > >But not "huge" armies, the other commanders would assume
  command -
  > > >now some of the sub commanders might take their toys (soldiers)
  > and
  > > >go home, but an entire "huge" army would not disband. Remember
  > these
  > > >armies were the size of travelling cities. With that said, I
  don't
  > > >have a problem with armies going away with the loss of a lone
  > > >commander. It could be argued to be realistic and doesn't
  affect
  > the
  > > >overall game that much.
  > > >
  > > >However, agents going into an army a killing the commander and
  > then
  > > >getting away scot free doesn't jive with most history/fiction.
  > There
  > > >should be some additional risk to assassins - maybe these
  orders
  > even
  > > >if successful should carry a higher risk of death if the victim
  > was
  > > >travelling with an army, company or in a friendly pop center. A
  > > >player with a 150 agent might think twice about popping that
  huge
  > > >army commander if they knew that there was a good chance that
  the
  > > >army might string them up afterword. Many covert operations
  have
  > been
  > > >considered "suicide" missions, this could be added to the game.
  > > >
  > > >It appears to me that most people agree that the agents are too
  > > >important in this game Regardless of game balance, imho,
  offensive
  > > >agents are just too important to the game mechanics. Something
  > should
  > > >be done to change - not game balance - emphasis on this one
  > character
  > > >class. Also, I don't think the suggestion is to change one of
  the
  > > >existing game modules but to develop a new middle earth game.
  > Don't
  > > >let game balance affect our suggestions or replies. I'm making
  the
  > > >assumption that the game will be balanced somehow and that all
  > things
  > > >are possible.
  > > >
  > > >Kevin
  > > >
  > > >--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:
  > > > > Given the medieval/ancients nature of ME combat, this is
  > actually
  > > > > reasonable. Armies tended to be held together by force of
  will
  > and
  > > > > dedication to the commander. Once the commander was gone
  > (killed or
  > > >fled),
  > > > > the army did tend to disband (often at very high speed and
  > > >sometimes in
  > > > > mid-battle). Being the commander was quite a risky business:
  > you
  > > >had to be
  > > > > at the front of the line in order for your troops to see you
  > > >fighting, but
  > > > > that put you right smack in the thick of the action. It's
  > really
  > > >only since
  > > > > Marlborough's time that commanders have tended to stay away
  > from
  > > >the battle
  > > > > itself, using subordinates to execute their orders and
  battle
  > plans
  > > >while
  > > > > they watched from a nearby hill.
  > > > >
  > > > > As for assassinating the commander being difficult because
  he
  > would
  > > >be
  > > > > well-known to the troops: I'm in two minds on this one. He
  > would be
  > > >known
  > > > > and recognisable to his close associates, making
  assassination
  > > >difficult,
  > > > > but not by most of the troops, making infiltration easy. The
  > run of
  > > >the mill
  > > > > soldiers would recognise him by his standard or by some other
  > > >highly visible
  > > > > sign. Get an army camp of five thousand men milling around
  and
  > one
  > > >more
  > > > > unknown face isn't going to stand out.
  > > > >
  > > > > Gavin
  > > > >
  > > > > Steve Prindeville wrote:
  > > > >
  > > > > > The other thing I have not liked about army commander
  > > >assassinations is the
  > > > > > army disbanding. How likely is it that an army would
  break
  > apart
  > > >and go home
  > > > > > when a commander is killed. Wouldn't their be lower level
  > > > > > commanders(non-coms) in the army?
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I disagree.

If we make agents weaker, stop the army disbanding by assassination, make curse-squads less effective, then what chance will the DS's have??

Joao

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Rodrigo Maia
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands

     Yeah, an "Use agent/stealth" artifact could work. Not only would decresase the importance of agent artefacts, it would diminish the refusal of challenges and instill paranoia in agent-oriented nations....

          Still, something would have to be done to curse squads....

              Rodrigo Maia
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: sprindeville
    To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:06 PM
    Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands

    But then on the other hand, if an agent can turn into wind(for a
    short period) to complete his mission, should it really increase his
    skill rank? When he gives his bauble away there shouldn't be any
    residual skill left over from that artifact.

    With the aid of the artifact the agent gets up to 100 and hands the
    thing off, he still acts like he has the artifact since at 100 rank
    he is almost unstoppable.

    Maybe those agent artifacts have to have the concious effort(an
    order) to use the artifact. A simple kill in a camp/village/town he
    would not use the artifact and improve his skill. More dangerous
    missions he issues the order to use artifact and the
    assassinate/kidnap and is open to challenge. Only increases his
    random skill increase at half normal, and if the skill was only a
    one increase he does not increase at all.

    I sure hope Clint & Co are up to programming all this...

    --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "sprindeville" <stevep@a...> wrote:
    >
    > Good Point! But then an agent with one of the magic baubles
    should
    > be working alone or lose, at least part of, the benefit.
    >
    > Turning into wind or impersonating an enemy would not be as good
    if
    > there was other agents and commanders(company) around to alert the
    > guards
    >
    > --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Weed" <watakshi@h...>
    > wrote:
    > > Although I believe that game balance is the most important
    thing,
    > always
    > > remember when making historical references...this world has
    > magic. Magic
    > > effectively changes the rules of reality. Your same assessment,
    > now, the
    > > Ring of Wind say, for instance, allows you to change into wind
    for
    > a certain
    > > period of time (not unreasonable for an +40A
    artifact)...Suddenly
    > that
    > > assassin getting away is quite a bit more likely. Consider the
    > > superstitious nature of the people, and the general beliefs on
    > magic, now
    > > what happens when you make a magic like effect.
    > >
    > > I do believe that an army should have a relative chance to catch
    > the agent
    > > and injure/kill the agent. It should be a threat that you face
    > when
    > > attempting to assassinate a man who leads an army. But the
    > existence of
    > > magic changes what is possible, probably and likely. A good
    > counter is a
    > > spell, call it "heightened awareness" which boosts scouts
    ability
    > to find
    > > characters, or a guards ability to protect his charge...
    > >
    > >
    > > >From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@s...>
    > > >Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
    > > >To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
    > > >Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands
    > > >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:37:02 -0000
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >My .02.
    > > >
    > > >Yes armies did collapse and disband after their commander was
    > killed.
    > > >But not "huge" armies, the other commanders would assume
    command -
    > > >now some of the sub commanders might take their toys (soldiers)
    > and
    > > >go home, but an entire "huge" army would not disband. Remember
    > these
    > > >armies were the size of travelling cities. With that said, I
    don't
    > > >have a problem with armies going away with the loss of a lone
    > > >commander. It could be argued to be realistic and doesn't
    affect
    > the
    > > >overall game that much.
    > > >
    > > >However, agents going into an army a killing the commander and
    > then
    > > >getting away scot free doesn't jive with most history/fiction.
    > There
    > > >should be some additional risk to assassins - maybe these
    orders
    > even
    > > >if successful should carry a higher risk of death if the victim
    > was
    > > >travelling with an army, company or in a friendly pop center. A
    > > >player with a 150 agent might think twice about popping that
    huge
    > > >army commander if they knew that there was a good chance that
    the
    > > >army might string them up afterword. Many covert operations
    have
    > been
    > > >considered "suicide" missions, this could be added to the game.
    > > >
    > > >It appears to me that most people agree that the agents are too
    > > >important in this game Regardless of game balance, imho,
    offensive
    > > >agents are just too important to the game mechanics. Something
    > should
    > > >be done to change - not game balance - emphasis on this one
    > character
    > > >class. Also, I don't think the suggestion is to change one of
    the
    > > >existing game modules but to develop a new middle earth game.
    > Don't
    > > >let game balance affect our suggestions or replies. I'm making
    the
    > > >assumption that the game will be balanced somehow and that all
    > things
    > > >are possible.
    > > >
    > > >Kevin
    > > >
    > > >--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:
    > > > > Given the medieval/ancients nature of ME combat, this is
    > actually
    > > > > reasonable. Armies tended to be held together by force of
    will
    > and
    > > > > dedication to the commander. Once the commander was gone
    > (killed or
    > > >fled),
    > > > > the army did tend to disband (often at very high speed and
    > > >sometimes in
    > > > > mid-battle). Being the commander was quite a risky business:
    > you
    > > >had to be
    > > > > at the front of the line in order for your troops to see you
    > > >fighting, but
    > > > > that put you right smack in the thick of the action. It's
    > really
    > > >only since
    > > > > Marlborough's time that commanders have tended to stay away
    > from
    > > >the battle
    > > > > itself, using subordinates to execute their orders and
    battle
    > plans
    > > >while
    > > > > they watched from a nearby hill.
    > > > >
    > > > > As for assassinating the commander being difficult because
    he
    > would
    > > >be
    > > > > well-known to the troops: I'm in two minds on this one. He
    > would be
    > > >known
    > > > > and recognisable to his close associates, making
    assassination
    > > >difficult,
    > > > > but not by most of the troops, making infiltration easy. The
    > run of
    > > >the mill
    > > > > soldiers would recognise him by his standard or by some other
    > > >highly visible
    > > > > sign. Get an army camp of five thousand men milling around
    and
    > one
    > > >more
    > > > > unknown face isn't going to stand out.
    > > > >
    > > > > Gavin
    > > > >
    > > > > Steve Prindeville wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > The other thing I have not liked about army commander
    > > >assassinations is the
    > > > > > army disbanding. How likely is it that an army would
    break
    > apart
    > > >and go home
    > > > > > when a commander is killed. Wouldn't their be lower level
    > > > > > commanders(non-coms) in the army?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If the idea is to create a new game not "tweak" an existing one, the
balance would have to be made in agent activities, economics,
military and magic. In other words, the game would become balanced,
because the DS's would have to do all four, not just rely on a bunch
of assassins. I don't think that the DS's nations are currently any
less capable of running armies or building nations, but because of
the way the game runs (and is played), games become agent based.
Remember, the FP's have assassins as well. They just aren't as adept
early on as the DS assassins. As I have stated before, I think the
emphasis of the new game should be better balance between the
character classes and a balance between the "sides."

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao Eduardo" <jepessoa@s...>
wrote:

I disagree.

If we make agents weaker, stop the army disbanding by

assassination, make curse-squads less effective, then what chance
will the DS's have??

Joao

  From: Rodrigo Maia
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands

     Yeah, an "Use agent/stealth" artifact could work. Not only

would decresase the importance of agent artefacts, it would diminish
the refusal of challenges and instill paranoia in agent-oriented
nations....

          Still, something would have to be done to curse squads....

              Rodrigo Maia
    From: sprindeville
    To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:06 PM
    Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands

    But then on the other hand, if an agent can turn into wind(for

a

    short period) to complete his mission, should it really

increase his

    skill rank? When he gives his bauble away there shouldn't be

any

    residual skill left over from that artifact.

    With the aid of the artifact the agent gets up to 100 and hands

the

    thing off, he still acts like he has the artifact since at 100

rank

    he is almost unstoppable.

    Maybe those agent artifacts have to have the concious effort(an
    order) to use the artifact. A simple kill in a

camp/village/town he

    would not use the artifact and improve his skill. More

dangerous

    missions he issues the order to use artifact and the
    assassinate/kidnap and is open to challenge. Only increases

his

    random skill increase at half normal, and if the skill was only

a

    one increase he does not increase at all.

    I sure hope Clint & Co are up to programming all this...

    --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "sprindeville" <stevep@a...>

wrote:

    >
    > Good Point! But then an agent with one of the magic baubles
    should
    > be working alone or lose, at least part of, the benefit.
    >
    > Turning into wind or impersonating an enemy would not be as

good

    if
    > there was other agents and commanders(company) around to

alert the

    > guards
    >
    > --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Weed"

<watakshi@h...>

    > wrote:
    > > Although I believe that game balance is the most important
    thing,
    > always
    > > remember when making historical references...this world has
    > magic. Magic
    > > effectively changes the rules of reality. Your same

assessment,

    > now, the
    > > Ring of Wind say, for instance, allows you to change into

wind

    for
    > a certain
    > > period of time (not unreasonable for an +40A
    artifact)...Suddenly
    > that
    > > assassin getting away is quite a bit more likely. Consider

the

    > > superstitious nature of the people, and the general beliefs

on

    > magic, now
    > > what happens when you make a magic like effect.
    > >
    > > I do believe that an army should have a relative chance to

catch

    > the agent
    > > and injure/kill the agent. It should be a threat that you

face

    > when
    > > attempting to assassinate a man who leads an army. But the
    > existence of
    > > magic changes what is possible, probably and likely. A

good

    > counter is a
    > > spell, call it "heightened awareness" which boosts scouts
    ability
    > to find
    > > characters, or a guards ability to protect his charge...
    > >
    > >
    > > >From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@s...>
    > > >Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
    > > >To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
    > > >Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands
    > > >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:37:02 -0000
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >My .02.
    > > >
    > > >Yes armies did collapse and disband after their commander

was

    > killed.
    > > >But not "huge" armies, the other commanders would assume
    command -
    > > >now some of the sub commanders might take their toys

(soldiers)

    > and
    > > >go home, but an entire "huge" army would not disband.

Remember

    > these
    > > >armies were the size of travelling cities. With that said,

I

    don't
    > > >have a problem with armies going away with the loss of a

lone

    > > >commander. It could be argued to be realistic and doesn't
    affect
    > the
    > > >overall game that much.
    > > >
    > > >However, agents going into an army a killing the commander

and

    > then
    > > >getting away scot free doesn't jive with most

history/fiction.

    > There
    > > >should be some additional risk to assassins - maybe these
    orders
    > even
    > > >if successful should carry a higher risk of death if the

victim

    > was
    > > >travelling with an army, company or in a friendly pop

center. A

    > > >player with a 150 agent might think twice about popping

that

    huge
    > > >army commander if they knew that there was a good chance

that

    the
    > > >army might string them up afterword. Many covert

operations

    have
    > been
    > > >considered "suicide" missions, this could be added to the

game.

    > > >
    > > >It appears to me that most people agree that the agents

are too

    > > >important in this game Regardless of game balance, imho,
    offensive
    > > >agents are just too important to the game mechanics.

Something

    > should
    > > >be done to change - not game balance - emphasis on this

one

    > character
    > > >class. Also, I don't think the suggestion is to change one

of

    the
    > > >existing game modules but to develop a new middle earth

game.

    > Don't
    > > >let game balance affect our suggestions or replies. I'm

making

    the
    > > >assumption that the game will be balanced somehow and that

all

    > things
    > > >are possible.
    > > >
    > > >Kevin
    > > >
    > > >--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...>

wrote:

    > > > > Given the medieval/ancients nature of ME combat, this

is

    > actually
    > > > > reasonable. Armies tended to be held together by force

of

    will
    > and
    > > > > dedication to the commander. Once the commander was

gone

    > (killed or
    > > >fled),
    > > > > the army did tend to disband (often at very high speed

and

    > > >sometimes in
    > > > > mid-battle). Being the commander was quite a risky

business:

    > you
    > > >had to be
    > > > > at the front of the line in order for your troops to

see you

    > > >fighting, but
    > > > > that put you right smack in the thick of the action.

It's

    > really
    > > >only since
    > > > > Marlborough's time that commanders have tended to stay

away

    > from
    > > >the battle
    > > > > itself, using subordinates to execute their orders and
    battle
    > plans
    > > >while
    > > > > they watched from a nearby hill.
    > > > >
    > > > > As for assassinating the commander being difficult

because

    he
    > would
    > > >be
    > > > > well-known to the troops: I'm in two minds on this one.

He

    > would be
    > > >known
    > > > > and recognisable to his close associates, making
    assassination
    > > >difficult,
    > > > > but not by most of the troops, making infiltration

easy. The

    > run of
    > > >the mill
    > > > > soldiers would recognise him by his standard or by some

other

    > > >highly visible
    > > > > sign. Get an army camp of five thousand men milling

around

    and
    > one
    > > >more
    > > > > unknown face isn't going to stand out.
    > > > >
    > > > > Gavin
    > > > >
    > > > > Steve Prindeville wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > The other thing I have not liked about army commander
    > > >assassinations is the
    > > > > > army disbanding. How likely is it that an army would
    break
    > apart
    > > >and go home
    > > > > > when a commander is killed. Wouldn't their be lower

level

···

  ----- Original Message -----
    ----- Original Message -----
    > > > > > commanders(non-coms) in the army?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >

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  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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              ADVERTISEMENT
             
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----------

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Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thats not exacttly the point. As i've stressed before, any changes should be exhaustively reviewed so it doesnt affect game balance. These all are just suggestions. As it is now, the DS has the upper hand. Maybe the "progressive disbanding" is doable, while the agent diminishment may not be. All of these are topics in a debate, doesn't necessarily means they're ALL going to "make the cut". We currently are in the position of having changes made to the game, and the mmost input we provide, better is the chance of a better game since broader is the administrators insight about what we think of the game ad possible changes

        Rodrigo Maia

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Joao Eduardo
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands

  I disagree.

  If we make agents weaker, stop the army disbanding by assassination, make curse-squads less effective, then what chance will the DS's have??

  Joao

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Rodrigo Maia
    To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:00 PM
    Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands

       Yeah, an "Use agent/stealth" artifact could work. Not only would decresase the importance of agent artefacts, it would diminish the refusal of challenges and instill paranoia in agent-oriented nations....

            Still, something would have to be done to curse squads....

                Rodrigo Maia
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: sprindeville
      To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:06 PM
      Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands

      But then on the other hand, if an agent can turn into wind(for a
      short period) to complete his mission, should it really increase his
      skill rank? When he gives his bauble away there shouldn't be any
      residual skill left over from that artifact.

      With the aid of the artifact the agent gets up to 100 and hands the
      thing off, he still acts like he has the artifact since at 100 rank
      he is almost unstoppable.

      Maybe those agent artifacts have to have the concious effort(an
      order) to use the artifact. A simple kill in a camp/village/town he
      would not use the artifact and improve his skill. More dangerous
      missions he issues the order to use artifact and the
      assassinate/kidnap and is open to challenge. Only increases his
      random skill increase at half normal, and if the skill was only a
      one increase he does not increase at all.

      I sure hope Clint & Co are up to programming all this...

      --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "sprindeville" <stevep@a...> wrote:
      >
      > Good Point! But then an agent with one of the magic baubles
      should
      > be working alone or lose, at least part of, the benefit.
      >
      > Turning into wind or impersonating an enemy would not be as good
      if
      > there was other agents and commanders(company) around to alert the
      > guards
      >
      > --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Weed" <watakshi@h...>
      > wrote:
      > > Although I believe that game balance is the most important
      thing,
      > always
      > > remember when making historical references...this world has
      > magic. Magic
      > > effectively changes the rules of reality. Your same assessment,
      > now, the
      > > Ring of Wind say, for instance, allows you to change into wind
      for
      > a certain
      > > period of time (not unreasonable for an +40A
      artifact)...Suddenly
      > that
      > > assassin getting away is quite a bit more likely. Consider the
      > > superstitious nature of the people, and the general beliefs on
      > magic, now
      > > what happens when you make a magic like effect.
      > >
      > > I do believe that an army should have a relative chance to catch
      > the agent
      > > and injure/kill the agent. It should be a threat that you face
      > when
      > > attempting to assassinate a man who leads an army. But the
      > existence of
      > > magic changes what is possible, probably and likely. A good
      > counter is a
      > > spell, call it "heightened awareness" which boosts scouts
      ability
      > to find
      > > characters, or a guards ability to protect his charge...
      > >
      > >
      > > >From: "Kevin Brown" <mornhm@s...>
      > > >Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > >To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > >Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Army disbands
      > > >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:37:02 -0000
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >My .02.
      > > >
      > > >Yes armies did collapse and disband after their commander was
      > killed.
      > > >But not "huge" armies, the other commanders would assume
      command -
      > > >now some of the sub commanders might take their toys (soldiers)
      > and
      > > >go home, but an entire "huge" army would not disband. Remember
      > these
      > > >armies were the size of travelling cities. With that said, I
      don't
      > > >have a problem with armies going away with the loss of a lone
      > > >commander. It could be argued to be realistic and doesn't
      affect
      > the
      > > >overall game that much.
      > > >
      > > >However, agents going into an army a killing the commander and
      > then
      > > >getting away scot free doesn't jive with most history/fiction.
      > There
      > > >should be some additional risk to assassins - maybe these
      orders
      > even
      > > >if successful should carry a higher risk of death if the victim
      > was
      > > >travelling with an army, company or in a friendly pop center. A
      > > >player with a 150 agent might think twice about popping that
      huge
      > > >army commander if they knew that there was a good chance that
      the
      > > >army might string them up afterword. Many covert operations
      have
      > been
      > > >considered "suicide" missions, this could be added to the game.
      > > >
      > > >It appears to me that most people agree that the agents are too
      > > >important in this game Regardless of game balance, imho,
      offensive
      > > >agents are just too important to the game mechanics. Something
      > should
      > > >be done to change - not game balance - emphasis on this one
      > character
      > > >class. Also, I don't think the suggestion is to change one of
      the
      > > >existing game modules but to develop a new middle earth game.
      > Don't
      > > >let game balance affect our suggestions or replies. I'm making
      the
      > > >assumption that the game will be balanced somehow and that all
      > things
      > > >are possible.
      > > >
      > > >Kevin
      > > >
      > > >--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:
      > > > > Given the medieval/ancients nature of ME combat, this is
      > actually
      > > > > reasonable. Armies tended to be held together by force of
      will
      > and
      > > > > dedication to the commander. Once the commander was gone
      > (killed or
      > > >fled),
      > > > > the army did tend to disband (often at very high speed and
      > > >sometimes in
      > > > > mid-battle). Being the commander was quite a risky business:
      > you
      > > >had to be
      > > > > at the front of the line in order for your troops to see you
      > > >fighting, but
      > > > > that put you right smack in the thick of the action. It's
      > really
      > > >only since
      > > > > Marlborough's time that commanders have tended to stay away
      > from
      > > >the battle
      > > > > itself, using subordinates to execute their orders and
      battle
      > plans
      > > >while
      > > > > they watched from a nearby hill.
      > > > >
      > > > > As for assassinating the commander being difficult because
      he
      > would
      > > >be
      > > > > well-known to the troops: I'm in two minds on this one. He
      > would be
      > > >known
      > > > > and recognisable to his close associates, making
      assassination
      > > >difficult,
      > > > > but not by most of the troops, making infiltration easy. The
      > run of
      > > >the mill
      > > > > soldiers would recognise him by his standard or by some other
      > > >highly visible
      > > > > sign. Get an army camp of five thousand men milling around
      and
      > one
      > > >more
      > > > > unknown face isn't going to stand out.
      > > > >
      > > > > Gavin
      > > > >
      > > > > Steve Prindeville wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > > The other thing I have not liked about army commander
      > > >assassinations is the
      > > > > > army disbanding. How likely is it that an army would
      break
      > apart
      > > >and go home
      > > > > > when a commander is killed. Wouldn't their be lower level
      > > > > > commanders(non-coms) in the army?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >

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