balancing gunboats

General
#1

Hi some thinkings about balanced gunboats

  1. I find diplos give advantage to DS , interest of gunboat is that fog of war is complete and each duo count on itself to survive and to strike… giving a double Scout to cloudlord let him to be deadly as almost like in a grudge game… Even if diplos are useful for FP too I ‘m sure diplos can give the edge to DS

  2. I find the no actions against allies, very limiting probably to advantage of DS…

Noldo can not sabotate harbour of cardolan, no training steal on the campement( a theft on a FP camp made by an ally may hurt really less than a theft on a DS camp made by one other DS , same thing for 525 a pop center you could ruin his naming characters )

Above all explain me this case I’m noldo or arthedain I come with emi squad and agents to Minas Anor or any other ally pop center : no army neither FP DS because enemy agents cleaned the pop centers just before and now they are gone… and DS emi sit down

Loyaulty is 30 or below , Ds have 6 EMI 70+ I have 8 EMI 70++, I have some agents 50 point skill, only one assassin above 60 skill rank

Well I have to concede Minas anor to Ds emi squad and can not steal any gold… because Minas Anor is allied pop center….

This make me no much motivation for going to help My FP allies, and spot to their centers with my characters. And DS has usual better agents to scout than FP so poor benefit for big risk.

If I’m northern gondor I prefer Arthedain taking Romenost with a 525 and recruiting there instead of get it stolen from DS emmies

If I caught up at GG is stil a fort Loyaty 1 of sindar, I have dwarfs I want to take it in order to remove the fort and raise the loyauty why I can’t do it…???

I’m Sindar an since turn 3 or 4 nation messages tell me Mata Hari is stealing gold in Harad start PC, I find Mata Hari and Ji indur at turn 10 on 3120(eotrahim pop center) , I have 1 assasin and one weak agent with stealth , but my scout don’t identify nation Id of this 2 agents… LAT tell me RoW is with MATA HARI , well cloud lord please kill me I know you are there and sure those characters are yours but rules say me I cant put offensive actions… so don t worry I will not steal you the RoW neither going to try to assassinate you.

Finally assassinating ally characters shoud be a really-like risk of friend-fire in a game with fog of war , sure this risk is more important for DS who hava best assassins in the game…

In normal game you can put “offensive” actions against allies most part of time to benefit of the alliance, sometimes for individual reasons (in order to survive picking up a major town or stealing gold to a safe ally or for simple Vengeance or victory points )

More than that if you put out all this advantages with trio or tetra combo the game for DS will probably become very easy

Cheers Renato.

#2

*** will try to answer some of this !!

Hi some thinkings about balanced gunboats

  1. I find diplos give advantage to DS , interest of gunboat is that fog of war is complete and each duo count on itself to survive and to strike… giving a double Scout to cloudlord let him to be deadly as almost like in a grudge game… Even if diplos are useful for FP too I ‘m sure diplos can give the edge to DS

*** I don’t find any advantage to either side with diplo’s, most of the time only half the nation even give a sitrep every 5th turn and by the time the next diplo comes around things have change dramatically – most diplo’s are usually what arties a nation got or where they are – least in begining and then hopefully some type of sitrep, but find like i said that only half the nation even send a diplo. **

  1. I find the no actions against allies, very limiting probably to advantage of DS…

**I don’t – except for maybe emissaries as you can’t do any 525’s but agnet can always 605. ***

Noldo can not sabotate harbour of cardolan, no training steal on the campement( a theft on a FP camp made by an ally may hurt really less than a theft on a DS camp made by one other DS , same thing for 525 a pop center you could ruin his naming characters )

** this isn’t true – if you send a Diplo asking then it is ok – have told allies about a camp of mine and to send agents to steal if need gold and have even sent a diplo to woodman or Duns asking for an agent in 60’s or hgiher to join my company and I doubled then and just asked them to refuse and scout for characters for me – takes some time to work things out with diplo being sent every 5 turns but can be done. **

Above all explain me this case I’m noldo or arthedain I come with emi squad and agents to Minas Anor or any other ally pop center : no army neither FP DS because enemy agents cleaned the pop centers just before and now they are gone… and DS emi sit down

Loyaulty is 30 or below , Ds have 6 EMI 70+ I have 8 EMI 70++, I have some agents 50 point skill, only one assassin above 60 skill rank

*** have had this happen – well I then doubled most of the enemy squad and came back and took pop center later turn ***

Well I have to concede Minas anor to Ds emi squad and can not steal any gold… because Minas Anor is allied pop center….

This make me no much motivation for going to help My FP allies, and spot to their centers with my characters. And DS has usual better agents to scout than FP so poor benefit for big risk.

If I’m northern gondor I prefer Arthedain taking Romenost with a 525 and recruiting there instead of get it stolen from DS emmies

*** send diplo and tell him it is ok to 525 it or ask him to send a character to 949 it – problem solved ***

If I caught up at GG is stil a fort Loyaty 1 of sindar, I have dwarfs I want to take it in order to remove the fort and raise the loyauty why I can’t do it…???

I’m Sindar an since turn 3 or 4 nation messages tell me Mata Hari is stealing gold in Harad start PC, I find Mata Hari and Ji indur at turn 10 on 3120(eotrahim pop center) , I have 1 assasin and one weak agent with stealth , but my scout don’t identify nation Id of this 2 agents… LAT tell me RoW is with MATA HARI , well cloud lord please kill me I know you are there and sure those characters are yours but rules say me I cant put offensive actions… so don t worry I will not steal you the RoW neither going to try to assassinate you.

**** you are reading the rules wrong – in this situation – you can’t do anything to the POP CENTER as its an ally – But you can most certainally go after Ji Indur and if You want you can go after Mata hari as the character wasn’t ID as belonging to an ally – for the life of me – I don’t know why the assasin wouldn’t go after JI indur and the other agent try to steal the arty off mata hari if he isn’t good enough to kill – JI Indur is a good enough target for me with my assasin. FOR EXAMPLE – the one ring was found going by nation messages – I moved one of my agent squads to 3423 – belonged to the Sinda – I scouted – didn’t see anyone but freeps – but lost two character next turn as the sinda killed them because he didn’t know who they blonged to but was showing on the pop center report – so he killed two friendlies and this was fair – didn’t like it but was within the rules. so usually try to send out at least one diplo later in game with names of my agents on a squad so allies don’t kill them. ***

Finally assassinating ally characters shoud be a really-like risk of friend-fire in a game with fog of war , sure this risk is more important for DS who hava best assassins in the game…

** read above – stated how had character killed in friendly fire incident ***

In normal game you can put “offensive” actions against allies most part of time to benefit of the alliance, sometimes for individual reasons (in order to survive picking up a major town or stealing gold to a safe ally or for simple Vengeance or victory points )

** which normal games – every so called normal game I am in everyone is usually talking and thus knows if someone is sending an agent to steal gold from a camp, send emmies to get a low loyalty pop center before other side gets it – etc , etc – Don;t really know anyone who worries about VC anymore – even in Gunboats I don’t. You can do this stuff in Gunbots but have to wait every 5 turns to work things out with diplo’s – like giving allies a camp to stel gold from ya if SG, or having say Cardolan get a front line Pop off NG – can do this with Diplos but again have to coordinate it as diplos only come every 5 turns. ***

More than that if you put out all this advantages with trio or tetra combo the game for DS will probably become very easy

*** don;t think so – been in about 10 games on freep side and freeps won 8 out of the 10 so far and one game on evil side – game 15 which evils just won – believe Clint keeps stats on number of wins for freeps and evils in Gunboats and almost even if not mistaken. ***

*** Mike ***

Cheers Renato.

#3

Mike,
It is you who are reading the gunboat rules wrong. In the situation Renato describes, Sinda could not go after Mata Hari, as that character has not been positively identified as an enemy. It’s not a matter of identifying a character as an ally, it’s a matter of identifying the character, period. You can not target any character unless you have positively proven it is an enemy, much different than the concept of not having ID’d it as an ally. The key difference to the situation you describe is that the Sinda can legally target any character in the hex that he hasn’t positively identified, because the popcenter belongs to him.
Drew

#4

I’d kill Mata hari and deal with the ramifications of my allies yelling at me if I knew all that info. Hey, someone told me his an enemy, I’d kill him.

Ooops, guess I’m illegal.

tim

#5

excactely more than that MY LAT or my scout give me location of Ji indur but not his nation id so I can’t do anything against him Because Ji indur could be the name of a new agent and original Ji indur could be dead…

and i don’ t agree with diplo as solving the problem because

  1. on rules is not said

  2. an ally send a diplo sayng mata hari is DS at T6 but you meet her at
    T10 , original MATA HARI could be dead and other nation called his characters with that name you can not be sure… if you aplly strictely the rules you can be sure only with a scout the same round or a spell giving the nation id that round…

  3. IF diplo allow anything i could open 1st turn diplo any hostile action allowed on my characters/ pop centers and on all characters at my pop centers…

4)scouting characters givve you sometimes wrong names you could say Aragost is FP character but your scout was WRONG!!

if i have to use diplo for allow single actions i need diplo each turn and i would prefer a standard game :wink:

Concerning the exampe i gave you of Minas anor:
Doubling emmies is more hard than taking a low loyauty po center , the turn after agents could come and your emmies without a very good scout could be toasted against agents… and you don’t consider your enemy could put an army on the center the turn after… Extreme case could be :

you have 6 emmis 60 Ren the unclean or other com emi is there without army only him pop center has loyauty 1 , he take the pop center and raise army the same round … yeah… sure maybe you doubled him good deal but pop center become now very hard to take…

Just to say that with actual rules if you apply them strictely: double scout is awesome if you let differents combos to make company betwen them , game risk to be not well balanced…

i have already played gunboats without restrictions, they are sure more violents but i think they maybe more fun

I would propose you for the next gunboat 3 players :

  1. diplos allowed ok

  2. no limitations : any action allowed on any location (you are big boy no one shoud tell you what is good or what is bad like sometimes some preachers do in standard games and friendly fire is a risk to handle with )

  3. not knowing any elimination by GM , your teammates can give you that info by diplos and obliges enemies to take some ressources in order to discover secret or questing hostages and so on…

i think rule 2 and 3 were proposed when no diplo was allowed…

a vote among players playing the game about that could be interesting

cheers Renato

#6

Well I have killed characters I haven’t ID’d on which side they belonged before just like he stated and never heard anything back about it.

#7

Well to me you are reading to much into it – everything i have explained I have done. If you want the rules 1 - 2 and 3 above, all you have to do is ask Clint and company to get a game like that – they have the standard rules for regular gunboat games and players can by all means ask for changes – how we have 4 nation and 3 nation gunboats going on right now.

Mike

#8

GB isn’t perfect, but it is just fine the way it is.

A alternative to its imperfections is to form a grudge team and play without those restrictions.

#9

You didn’t hear back because you either guessed right and your target was an enemy, or your ally didn’t know he had lost his character to an ally. Either way, you still broke the gunboat rules. In a GB game I played some years ago, Glorfindel challenged out one of my SG emmys at an artifact hex. When I called it to the attention of MEG, they restored my character, gave me the artifact (I was answering the riddle and moving out) and the Noldo was given a warning. I say this to point out that even in that obvious case of a starting Noldo character challenging an ally, MEG did not catch it, so obviously they won’t catch friendly-fire assassinations. So yes, you can break the rules and take that chance you are right. If you are correct and it is an enemy character, no one will know that you hadn’t positively identified him beforehand, and you walk scot-free; if you are incorrect, but your ally does not know he lost his character to a “friendly” assassin, once again, you are likely to walk scot-free. Only in the case of you are both incorrect AND your ally knows will you be showed a yellow card in a manner of speaking. I understand playing the odds and taking that chance. Nevertheless, it is breaking the GB rules, and if you are caught you are liable to be banned from future GB games!

#10

Yes, it’s an honour system where justice is complaint driven, like town by-laws - just because it says you can’t have a fire in your backyard, doesn’t mean you can’t have a fire in your backyard. But one neighbour makes the phone call and there are trucks in the street handing you a big fine. I’ve asked when I’ve had bad things happen to characters - MEGames investigates the circumstances and proceeds to tell you “Too bad, so sad” or they’ll correct the situation - big fine included - as per Drew’s example.

#11

Well then I must be reading the rules different. If Ji is in that hex and Mata hari has been ID’s by me as having hung or being around Ji – I am assuming that this character is an enemy character and thus taking action against them – if in the scenerio you stated above – the Noldo went into the hex and ID’ed him as being a SG character then by all means he broke the rules, but if I pick up a rumor that some character got an encounter there and isn’t a starting character – by all means I would have challanged.

Mike

#12

Yep, you are reading them “different.” :slight_smile: The Noldo got my emmy’s name from the encounter rumor, and had not identified the nationality of the character he was challenging. And note you have to use the word “assume” to construct your argument. That’s the crux of the whole matter we’re discussing. Because you haven’t positively identified Mata Hari as CL or any other nation, s/he is an “unknown character” which is what the below rule is all about. You are a savy enough player to “know” that is a CL character, but you can not “prove” it is by any black-and-white intel. Which is exactly the frustration Renato is talking about, as I read it.

>>Characters At Other Locations
You may not take offensive actions against unknown characters, or characters of other nations on your team, at population centres which you do not own or who are not at population centres. Offensive actions include but are not limited to influencing, stealing, sabotaging, cursing, etc. If you are unsure whether something is permitted, please ask us before attempting it.<<

#13

thanks to drukarz you got the point

i just think this rule not really fine because it restrict a lot of actions and it can not really handle by the program(a message telling you : he couldn’ t assassinate the characters because he was of an ally one)
and above all interest of a fog war of game is that you can try and you make things really different by standard games…even killing for mistake allies indeed

example you could prefer to take risk stealing a RoW to an ally instead of leaving it to enemy because you don t know the nation id of the owner

i dont like the way of thinking : you can do anything and breaking laws if no complaint happen it means some players will have less impact because they simply respect rules at 100%

if i respect law and i don t kill cloud lord assassins in my example because i m not totally sure they own to him or because i can t prove it , why in the opposite case i should receive an assassination by an enemy player who guessed my character was an enemy one??

I have already played ghunboat without restrictions to action against any characters and i found them very funny… yo really choise if you take risk or not to annoying a potentially ally each time

I dont think i have to get in a grudge game for hIaving a really fog of war game in a grudge game don t need of trying to consider risk/benefit of my actions on ally characters and pop centers i just know everything

i m just proposing players should thinking about this rule and vote on it at the start of next game if they still want that it s fine , if not just play without that .
I think several rough players finally would prefer to play without restriction and handle friendly fire risk

for other matters I could be fine with diplo and knowing nations eliminated.

cheers all Renato