Battle of the Five Armies

mepbmlist
#1

Mike is correct.

The dispute over Erebor/Lonely Mountain that erupted into the Battle of the
Five Armies was as follows...

1) Thorin and company (essentially 12 dwarves, with Bilbo being neutral) laid
claim to it after Bard killed Smaug with the Black Arrow. Not an army at all,
yet...

2) Bard (now leading the men of Laketown/Esgaroth, i.e. Northmen, army # 1)
and Thranduil (leading the Wood/Sylvan elves, army # 2) then show up seeking
reparations for the damages that Smaug has inflicted upon them over the
years. Everybody is being greedy as hell (with Bilbo insisting that there is
enough for all to share, typical hobbit). Things look bleak for Thorins
claim, until...

3) Dain of the Iron Hills shows up with an army of dwarves. Thorin assumes
command (thus army # 3). Thorin is still outnumbered, but he has quality and
position in his favor.

4) They are about to mix it up when Gandalf intercedes, warning them of
another arrival, Bolg - the great goblin himself (leading army # 4). His
forces are goblins from the Misty Mountains seeking to raid the mountain of
its treasures. They are easily larger than the three armies of elves, men and
dwarves combined and force the others set aside their differences to defend
themselves. They are nearly overwhelmed by the goblins until...

5) The eagles (army # 5), met earlier by Thorin and co, arrive - possibly at
Gandalfs summoning. Their leader, Gwailhir - lord of the eagles, was once
saved by him and seems connected to him as a result, so this is possible. The
eagles turn the tide of battle and after many die (after Thorin dies their
are only six left of his company) there is much rejoicing.

This yields five nations and leaders

1) Dwarves - Thorin
2) Men (Northmen?) - Bard
3) Wood (Sylvan) Elves - Thranduil
4) Goblins (Orcs) - Bolg
5) Eagles - Gwaihir

WHAT is the premise to all these posts/replies, Clint? Are you designing a FA
scenario to emulate the political/military environment at the time of "The
Hobbit"? If so, ye gods...count me in!!! I'd love a crack at playing Bolgs
forces :wink:

But what kind of game would it be?

What other nations (there's 20 more, if a normal FA scenario)?

Would there be alterations to the normal victory conditions/game end, focused
upon Erebor instead of the normal NK/SK related objectives?

Curiously,
Tom Francis

#2

5) The eagles (army # 5), met earlier by Thorin and co, arrive - possibly

at

Gandalfs summoning. Their leader, Gwailhir - lord of the eagles, was once
saved by him and seems connected to him as a result, so this is possible.

The

eagles turn the tide of battle and after many die (after Thorin dies their
are only six left of his company) there is much rejoicing.

A small correction. The Eagles were gathering together before the battle
after having observed the large movement of goblins through the mountains.
They descended upon the battle after seeing the battle start. The eagles
cleared the mountain of goblins, but it was Beorn who turned the tide of
battle. He crushed the goblins surrounding Thorin's bodyguard and saved him
from being hacked apart (even though Thorin died later). Beorn returned to
the battle and slaughtered the Goblin King's (Bolg) bodyguard and then the
King himself. This demoralized the goblin army and they fled the field.

Deni

#3

--- In mepbmlist@y..., drsybaris@a... wrote:

Mike is correct.

This yields five nations and leaders

1) Dwarves - Thorin
2) Men (Northmen?) - Bard
3) Wood (Sylvan) Elves - Thranduil
4) Goblins (Orcs) - Bolg
5) Eagles - Gwaihir

Actually, it yields 7 nations and leaders.

6) Wargs - Biggus Wargus
7) Beorn - Beorn

Foster's "Guide to Middle Earth" lists the 5 armies as being:
Dwarves, Lakemen, Woodelves, Goblins and Wargs.

Same with a couple of other online reference guides I've seen.

While the Eagles and Beorn helped, they can't be considered armies who
helped fight the battle, just as Bilbo can't be counted as an army :slight_smile:

Øystein

#4

I am looking for a new game for newbies - something that takes some of the
best bits of the game and introduces them slowly in a non-damaging
environment (see discussions before). It's an introduction to the game so
that the players can then move onto play the game properly. There would be
around 5 nations (hence Battle of the Five Armies) and we're probably using
the FA engine.

(We're trying to get something to fit the expected increase in players when
the film turns up primarily, and secondarily to have normal new players have
a better introduction to the game. Third, I am afraid to say, is have
something small and new for you all to play. Maybe it can be developed that
way but 1st and 2nd aims are what I am looking for.)

Note if you (or others) want to design a FA scenario then that would be
fine. We can't really change the VPs for SS - but we are getting around
that in a couple of games with using only 24 nations and one of the Kingdoms
out of bounds.

Clint

WHAT is the premise to all these posts/replies, Clint? Are you designing a

FA

scenario to emulate the political/military environment at the time of "The
Hobbit"? If so, ye gods...count me in!!! I'd love a crack at playing Bolgs
forces :wink:

But what kind of game would it be?

What other nations (there's 20 more, if a normal FA scenario)?

Would there be alterations to the normal victory conditions/game end,

focused

···

upon Erebor instead of the normal NK/SK related objectives?

Curiously,
Tom Francis

#5

So who's this "Foster", and what makes him the official authority? :wink:
Seriously, I was going off the movie, which specifically lists the Eagles as the 5th
army. Of course, movie producers would NEVER take literary liberties, so it MUST be
true.
I'll have to look in the actual Hobbit book (if I can find my copy) to see what it
says. I think Tolkien would be a better authority than this Foster person. :wink:

Mike

···

------Original Message-----
-From: oysteint@ifi.uio.no [mailto:oysteint@ifi.uio.no]
-Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 3:12 AM
-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
-Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Battle of the Five Armies
-
-
---- In mepbmlist@y..., drsybaris@a... wrote:
-> Mike is correct.
-
-> This yields five nations and leaders
->
-> 1) Dwarves - Thorin
-> 2) Men (Northmen?) - Bard
-> 3) Wood (Sylvan) Elves - Thranduil
-> 4) Goblins (Orcs) - Bolg
-> 5) Eagles - Gwaihir
-
-Actually, it yields 7 nations and leaders.
-
-6) Wargs - Biggus Wargus
-7) Beorn - Beorn
-
-Foster's "Guide to Middle Earth" lists the 5 armies as being:
-Dwarves, Lakemen, Woodelves, Goblins and Wargs.
-
-Same with a couple of other online reference guides I've seen.
-
-While the Eagles and Beorn helped, they can't be considered armies who
-helped fight the battle, just as Bilbo can't be counted as an army :slight_smile:
-
-
-�ystein
-
-
-Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
-To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
-http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
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-
-

#6

Mike is correct.

The dispute over Erebor/Lonely Mountain that erupted into the Battle of

the

Five Armies was as follows...

1) Thorin and company (essentially 12 dwarves, with Bilbo being neutral)

laid

claim to it after Bard killed Smaug with the Black Arrow. Not an army at

all,

yet...

2) Bard (now leading the men of Laketown/Esgaroth, i.e. Northmen, army #

1)

and Thranduil (leading the Wood/Sylvan elves, army # 2) then show up

seeking

reparations for the damages that Smaug has inflicted upon them over the
years. Everybody is being greedy as hell (with Bilbo insisting that there

is

enough for all to share, typical hobbit). Things look bleak for Thorins
claim, until...

3) Dain of the Iron Hills shows up with an army of dwarves. Thorin assumes
command (thus army # 3). Thorin is still outnumbered, but he has quality

and

position in his favor.

4) They are about to mix it up when Gandalf intercedes, warning them of
another arrival, Bolg - the great goblin himself (leading army # 4). His
forces are goblins from the Misty Mountains seeking to raid the mountain

of

its treasures. They are easily larger than the three armies of elves, men

and

dwarves combined and force the others set aside their differences to

defend

themselves. They are nearly overwhelmed by the goblins until...

5) The eagles (army # 5), met earlier by Thorin and co, arrive - possibly

at

Gandalfs summoning. Their leader, Gwailhir - lord of the eagles, was once
saved by him and seems connected to him as a result, so this is possible.

The

eagles turn the tide of battle and after many die (after Thorin dies their
are only six left of his company) there is much rejoicing.

This yields five nations and leaders

1) Dwarves - Thorin
2) Men (Northmen?) - Bard
3) Wood (Sylvan) Elves - Thranduil
4) Goblins (Orcs) - Bolg
5) Eagles - Gwaihir

RD: Disagree. Thorin has a dozen dwarves at his command, Dain has 500. So
Dain is the Dwa c-in-c and Thorin commands a tiny unit.

Most importantly you have forgotten BEORN. It was he who turned the tide of
battle, not the eagles. Beorn cut his way thru the goblin-king's guard,
Beorn slew Bolg, and Beorn who bore Thorin's corpse out of the fray.

WHAT is the premise to all these posts/replies, Clint? Are you designing a

FA

scenario to emulate the political/military environment at the time of "The
Hobbit"? If so, ye gods...count me in!!! I'd love a crack at playing Bolgs
forces :wink:

But what kind of game would it be?

What other nations (there's 20 more, if a normal FA scenario)?

Would there be alterations to the normal victory conditions/game end,

focused

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <drsybaris@aol.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 7:39 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Battle of the Five Armies

upon Erebor instead of the normal NK/SK related objectives?

Curiously,
Tom Francis

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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#7

> 5) The eagles (army # 5), met earlier by Thorin and co, arrive -

possibly

at
> Gandalfs summoning. Their leader, Gwailhir - lord of the eagles, was

once

> saved by him and seems connected to him as a result, so this is

possible.

The
> eagles turn the tide of battle and after many die (after Thorin dies

their

> are only six left of his company) there is much rejoicing.

A small correction. The Eagles were gathering together before the battle
after having observed the large movement of goblins through the mountains.
They descended upon the battle after seeing the battle start. The eagles
cleared the mountain of goblins, but it was Beorn who turned the tide of
battle. He crushed the goblins surrounding Thorin's bodyguard and saved

him

from being hacked apart (even though Thorin died later). Beorn returned

to

the battle and slaughtered the Goblin King's (Bolg) bodyguard and then the
King himself. This demoralized the goblin army and they fled the field.

Deni

RD: Spot on, mate!

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "dgarrett" <gtgsmom@swbell.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Battle of the Five Armies

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#8

So who's this "Foster", and what makes him the official authority? :wink:
Seriously, I was going off the movie, which specifically lists the Eagles

as the 5th

army. Of course, movie producers would NEVER take literary liberties, so

it MUST be

true.
I'll have to look in the actual Hobbit book (if I can find my copy) to see

what it

says. I think Tolkien would be a better authority than this Foster person.

:wink:

Mike

RD: if you haven't got Foster's 'Complete Guide to Middle-Earth' then, with
respect, you should have. It is a painstakingly researched and
comprehensive list of names and events from the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and
LoR. You can find answers in its pages infinitely faster than combing the
originals.

However, I must say that in this instance I think Foster has got it wrong.
It's illogical that the orcs and wargs should be classified as 2 armies when
they were all under the command of Bolg, and many if not all the wargs were
acting as mounts for orcs. This is like counting the Eothraim as 2 armies,
one of men and one of horses!

I would count the orcs and wargs under Bolg as one army, and the Eagles as
the fifth army. Why not? They were numerous enough, and fought in a
co-ordinated fashion under a single commander, as they had done since the
First Age. I believe their leader's name was Thorondor. Thorondor had led
them in the First Age battles, so either Thorondor was, like the Elves,
immortal (unlikely), or every successive lord of the Eagles was known by
that name (like the Dwarves were always led by Durin).

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaruman" <aaruman@orions.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Re: Battle of the Five Armies

------Original Message-----
-From: oysteint@ifi.uio.no [mailto:oysteint@ifi.uio.no]
-Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 3:12 AM
-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
-Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Battle of the Five Armies
-
-
---- In mepbmlist@y..., drsybaris@a... wrote:
-> Mike is correct.
-
-> This yields five nations and leaders
->
-> 1) Dwarves - Thorin
-> 2) Men (Northmen?) - Bard
-> 3) Wood (Sylvan) Elves - Thranduil
-> 4) Goblins (Orcs) - Bolg
-> 5) Eagles - Gwaihir
-
-Actually, it yields 7 nations and leaders.
-
-6) Wargs - Biggus Wargus
-7) Beorn - Beorn
-
-Foster's "Guide to Middle Earth" lists the 5 armies as being:
-Dwarves, Lakemen, Woodelves, Goblins and Wargs.
-
-Same with a couple of other online reference guides I've seen.
-
-While the Eagles and Beorn helped, they can't be considered armies who
-helped fight the battle, just as Bilbo can't be counted as an army :slight_smile:
-
-
-�ystein
-
-
-Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
-To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
-http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
-
-
-Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-
-

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#9

Richard. This is still all from "The Hobbit". The new movie starts with
Fellowship, so unless they decide to provide some "flashbacks" or something,
the Five Armies won't be in the movie this December.

-Draugnar

#10

However, I must say that in this instance I think Foster has got it wrong.
It's illogical that the orcs and wargs should be classified as 2 armies

when

they were all under the command of Bolg, and many if not all the wargs

were

acting as mounts for orcs. This is like counting the Eothraim as 2

armies,

one of men and one of horses!

Nope. I think that you have it wrong on this one. It states that their
'ALLIES', the wolves, came with Bolg to sack the mountain. Thus two
armies. The wolves joined with the orcs to plunder and pillage.

I would count the orcs and wargs under Bolg as one army, and the Eagles as
the fifth army. Why not? They were numerous enough, and fought in a
co-ordinated fashion under a single commander, as they had done since the
First Age. I believe their leader's name was Thorondor. Thorondor had

led

them in the First Age battles, so either Thorondor was, like the Elves,
immortal (unlikely), or every successive lord of the Eagles was known by
that name (like the Dwarves were always led by Durin).

The leader at the Battle of Five armies was Gwaihir, a descendant of
Thorondor.

But what about the army of BATS that darkened the sky so that the Goblins
could fight in the daylight? Surely they should count? Just kidding. The
eagles showed up fashionably late, so they dont get to count.

Deni

#11

Richard John Devereux wrote:

However, I must say that in this instance I think Foster has got it wrong.
It's illogical that the orcs and wargs should be classified as 2 armies when
they were all under the command of Bolg, and many if not all the wargs were
acting as mounts for orcs. This is like counting the Eothraim as 2 armies,
one of men and one of horses!

Not exactly. Gandalf's exact words to the defenders were, "They ride
upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!" Recall that wolves and Wargs
are two different kinds of creatures; Wargs are part spirit, akin to
werewolves, and their bodies fade into mist when slain. Few Wargs would
deign to be ridden by anybody.

Later on the same page, Tolkein writes:
   "So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the
   Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were
   the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and
   Men and Dwarves."
Clearly, the Goblins and Wargs are being counted as two armies. If
Tolkein had intended the Eagles to be counted as an army, he would have
said so. In the animated movie Bilbo (the Rankin & Bass rendition
thereof) counts the Eagles as the 5th army, but he says no such thing in
the book.

Moreover it is quite clear from the narrative that Dain was the dwarven
commander; it was he who took counsel with Bard and the Elven-king,
committed the dwarves to battle, and led them into they fray. Thorin
only joined in after the fact.

I would count the orcs and wargs under Bolg as one army, and the Eagles as
the fifth army. Why not?

No reason not to, except that apparently that wasn't Tolkein's
reckoning. But then, you do have a way of taking liberties with Mr.
Tolkein's work...

They were numerous enough, and fought in a
co-ordinated fashion under a single commander, as they had done since the
First Age. I believe their leader's name was Thorondor.

The Lord of the Eagles in 'The Hobbit' was Gwaihir, although his name is
not given in that work. That is, unless Gandalf befriended two entirely
separate Lords of the Eagles by exactly the same means.

Thorondor had led
them in the First Age battles, so either Thorondor was, like the Elves,
immortal (unlikely), or every successive lord of the Eagles was known by
that name (like the Dwarves were always led by Durin).

Thorondor was around for most of the First Age - a long stretch of time,
so he may have been immortal indeed; Foster speculates he may have gone
West at its end, for he is not mentioned again and it would stand to
reason that his death would have been mentioned somewhere - though
again, we have seen what liberties you like to take with anything not
explicitly stated. Certainly Thorondor seems to have been much larger
than Gwaihir, since he went talon-to-talon with Morgoth's dragons.

While Thorondor may have been a title as much as a name, at no point is
Gwaihir *ever* referred to as Thorondor.

BTW the dwarves were not 'always' led by Durin - far from it. There
were long stretches of time with no Durin on the throne. Note, for
example, that neither the 1650 nor 2950 have a Durin in them; surely the
High King of the Dwarves would be included if he were around. Durin
does not appear, nor is he mentioned as a contemporary, in either 'The
Hobbit' or the LOTR trilogy.

Now, one *could* come up with a MEPBM scenario set at the time of the
Goblin Wars, and place Durin VI at the head of the Dwarves. Heck, that
might even make the nation playable...

-ED \1/

#12

Richard John Devereux wrote:
>
> However, I must say that in this instance I think Foster has got it

wrong.

> It's illogical that the orcs and wargs should be classified as 2 armies

when

> they were all under the command of Bolg, and many if not all the wargs

were

> acting as mounts for orcs. This is like counting the Eothraim as 2

armies,

> one of men and one of horses!
>
Not exactly. Gandalf's exact words to the defenders were, "They ride
upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!" Recall that wolves and Wargs
are two different kinds of creatures; Wargs are part spirit, akin to
werewolves, and their bodies fade into mist when slain. Few Wargs would
deign to be ridden by anybody.

Later on the same page, Tolkein writes:
   "So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the
   Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were
   the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and
   Men and Dwarves."
Clearly, the Goblins and Wargs are being counted as two armies. If
Tolkein had intended the Eagles to be counted as an army, he would have
said so. In the animated movie Bilbo (the Rankin & Bass rendition
thereof) counts the Eagles as the 5th army, but he says no such thing in
the book.

Moreover it is quite clear from the narrative that Dain was the dwarven
commander; it was he who took counsel with Bard and the Elven-king,
committed the dwarves to battle, and led them into they fray. Thorin
only joined in after the fact.

> I would count the orcs and wargs under Bolg as one army, and the Eagles

as

> the fifth army. Why not?
>
No reason not to, except that apparently that wasn't Tolkein's
reckoning. But then, you do have a way of taking liberties with Mr.
Tolkein's work...

> They were numerous enough, and fought in a
> co-ordinated fashion under a single commander, as they had done since

the

> First Age. I believe their leader's name was Thorondor.
>
The Lord of the Eagles in 'The Hobbit' was Gwaihir, although his name is
not given in that work. That is, unless Gandalf befriended two entirely
separate Lords of the Eagles by exactly the same means.

> Thorondor had led
> them in the First Age battles, so either Thorondor was, like the Elves,
> immortal (unlikely), or every successive lord of the Eagles was known by
> that name (like the Dwarves were always led by Durin).
>
Thorondor was around for most of the First Age - a long stretch of time,
so he may have been immortal indeed; Foster speculates he may have gone
West at its end, for he is not mentioned again and it would stand to
reason that his death would have been mentioned somewhere - though
again, we have seen what liberties you like to take with anything not
explicitly stated. Certainly Thorondor seems to have been much larger
than Gwaihir, since he went talon-to-talon with Morgoth's dragons.

While Thorondor may have been a title as much as a name, at no point is
Gwaihir *ever* referred to as Thorondor.

RD: Quite right - I just couldn't find the link to lead me to Gwaihir.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward A Dimmick" <dukefenton@earthlink.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 4:58 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Battle of the Five Armies

BTW the dwarves were not 'always' led by Durin - far from it. There
were long stretches of time with no Durin on the throne. Note, for
example, that neither the 1650 nor 2950 have a Durin in them; surely the
High King of the Dwarves would be included if he were around. Durin
does not appear, nor is he mentioned as a contemporary, in either 'The
Hobbit' or the LOTR trilogy.

Now, one *could* come up with a MEPBM scenario set at the time of the
Goblin Wars, and place Durin VI at the head of the Dwarves. Heck, that
might even make the nation playable...

-ED \1/

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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#13

Don't forget Thorin Stonehelm - I think he is King of Durin's
Folk after the death of Dain Ironfoot (the greatest Dwarf ever, and I
will happily debate that point - Gimli doesnt even come close ;), and
then assumes the moniker of Durin VII, the last. Not too sure if he
re-enters Moria then becomes Durin, or vice versa.

Anyway, this information is an amalgam of information taken from
Tolkien and ICE many moons ago. Memory plays tricks, so this could
all be hogwash.

Ray

--- In mepbmlist@y..., Edward A Dimmick <dukefenton@e...> wrote:

Richard John Devereux wrote:
>
> However, I must say that in this instance I think Foster has got

it wrong.

> It's illogical that the orcs and wargs should be classified as 2

armies when

> they were all under the command of Bolg, and many if not all the

wargs were

> acting as mounts for orcs. This is like counting the Eothraim as

2 armies,

> one of men and one of horses!
>
Not exactly. Gandalf's exact words to the defenders were, "They

ride

upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!" Recall that wolves and

Wargs

are two different kinds of creatures; Wargs are part spirit, akin to
werewolves, and their bodies fade into mist when slain. Few Wargs

would

deign to be ridden by anybody.

Later on the same page, Tolkein writes:
   "So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the
   Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side

were

   the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves

and

   Men and Dwarves."
Clearly, the Goblins and Wargs are being counted as two armies. If
Tolkein had intended the Eagles to be counted as an army, he would

have

said so. In the animated movie Bilbo (the Rankin & Bass rendition
thereof) counts the Eagles as the 5th army, but he says no such

thing in

the book.

Moreover it is quite clear from the narrative that Dain was the

dwarven

commander; it was he who took counsel with Bard and the Elven-king,
committed the dwarves to battle, and led them into they fray.

Thorin

only joined in after the fact.

> I would count the orcs and wargs under Bolg as one army, and the

Eagles as

> the fifth army. Why not?
>
No reason not to, except that apparently that wasn't Tolkein's
reckoning. But then, you do have a way of taking liberties with Mr.
Tolkein's work...

> They were numerous enough, and fought in a
> co-ordinated fashion under a single commander, as they had done

since the

> First Age. I believe their leader's name was Thorondor.
>
The Lord of the Eagles in 'The Hobbit' was Gwaihir, although his

name is

not given in that work. That is, unless Gandalf befriended two

entirely

separate Lords of the Eagles by exactly the same means.

> Thorondor had led
> them in the First Age battles, so either Thorondor was, like the

Elves,

> immortal (unlikely), or every successive lord of the Eagles was

known by

> that name (like the Dwarves were always led by Durin).
>
Thorondor was around for most of the First Age - a long stretch of

time,

so he may have been immortal indeed; Foster speculates he may have

gone

West at its end, for he is not mentioned again and it would stand to
reason that his death would have been mentioned somewhere - though
again, we have seen what liberties you like to take with anything

not

explicitly stated. Certainly Thorondor seems to have been much

larger

than Gwaihir, since he went talon-to-talon with Morgoth's dragons.

While Thorondor may have been a title as much as a name, at no point

is

Gwaihir *ever* referred to as Thorondor.

BTW the dwarves were not 'always' led by Durin - far from it. There
were long stretches of time with no Durin on the throne. Note, for
example, that neither the 1650 nor 2950 have a Durin in them; surely

the

High King of the Dwarves would be included if he were around. Durin
does not appear, nor is he mentioned as a contemporary, in either

'The

Hobbit' or the LOTR trilogy.

Now, one *could* come up with a MEPBM scenario set at the time of

the

Goblin Wars, and place Durin VI at the head of the Dwarves. Heck,

that

···

might even make the nation playable...

-ED \1/

#14

Don't forget Thorin Stonehelm - I think he is King of Durin's
Folk after the death of Dain Ironfoot (the greatest Dwarf ever, and I
will happily debate that point - Gimli doesnt even come close ;), and
then assumes the moniker of Durin VII, the last. Not too sure if he
re-enters Moria then becomes Durin, or vice versa.

Anyway, this information is an amalgam of information taken from
Tolkien and ICE many moons ago. Memory plays tricks, so this could
all be hogwash.

Ray

RD: There certainly was a Durin VII contemporary with Thorin III Stonehelm.
It's not impossible that Thorin changed his name, or was acclaimed as Durin
VII by Durin's Folk.

Before somebody accuses me of 'taking liberties' again, I'm merely
speculating about the possibility.

Of course, if Ray could find the link in Tolkien's work (not a game or
film!) that would be a different matter!

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Devlin" <hurly_burly_69@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 9:59 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Battle of the Five Armies

--- In mepbmlist@y..., Edward A Dimmick <dukefenton@e...> wrote:
> Richard John Devereux wrote:
> >
> > However, I must say that in this instance I think Foster has got
it wrong.
> > It's illogical that the orcs and wargs should be classified as 2
armies when
> > they were all under the command of Bolg, and many if not all the
wargs were
> > acting as mounts for orcs. This is like counting the Eothraim as
2 armies,
> > one of men and one of horses!
> >
> Not exactly. Gandalf's exact words to the defenders were, "They
ride
> upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!" Recall that wolves and
Wargs
> are two different kinds of creatures; Wargs are part spirit, akin to
> werewolves, and their bodies fade into mist when slain. Few Wargs
would
> deign to be ridden by anybody.
>
> Later on the same page, Tolkein writes:
> "So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the
> Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side
were
> the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves
and
> Men and Dwarves."
> Clearly, the Goblins and Wargs are being counted as two armies. If
> Tolkein had intended the Eagles to be counted as an army, he would
have
> said so. In the animated movie Bilbo (the Rankin & Bass rendition
> thereof) counts the Eagles as the 5th army, but he says no such
thing in
> the book.
>
> Moreover it is quite clear from the narrative that Dain was the
dwarven
> commander; it was he who took counsel with Bard and the Elven-king,
> committed the dwarves to battle, and led them into they fray.
Thorin
> only joined in after the fact.
>
> > I would count the orcs and wargs under Bolg as one army, and the
Eagles as
> > the fifth army. Why not?
> >
> No reason not to, except that apparently that wasn't Tolkein's
> reckoning. But then, you do have a way of taking liberties with Mr.
> Tolkein's work...
>
> > They were numerous enough, and fought in a
> > co-ordinated fashion under a single commander, as they had done
since the
> > First Age. I believe their leader's name was Thorondor.
> >
> The Lord of the Eagles in 'The Hobbit' was Gwaihir, although his
name is
> not given in that work. That is, unless Gandalf befriended two
entirely
> separate Lords of the Eagles by exactly the same means.
>
> > Thorondor had led
> > them in the First Age battles, so either Thorondor was, like the
Elves,
> > immortal (unlikely), or every successive lord of the Eagles was
known by
> > that name (like the Dwarves were always led by Durin).
> >
> Thorondor was around for most of the First Age - a long stretch of
time,
> so he may have been immortal indeed; Foster speculates he may have
gone
> West at its end, for he is not mentioned again and it would stand to
> reason that his death would have been mentioned somewhere - though
> again, we have seen what liberties you like to take with anything
not
> explicitly stated. Certainly Thorondor seems to have been much
larger
> than Gwaihir, since he went talon-to-talon with Morgoth's dragons.
>
> While Thorondor may have been a title as much as a name, at no point
is
> Gwaihir *ever* referred to as Thorondor.
>
> BTW the dwarves were not 'always' led by Durin - far from it. There
> were long stretches of time with no Durin on the throne. Note, for
> example, that neither the 1650 nor 2950 have a Durin in them; surely
the
> High King of the Dwarves would be included if he were around. Durin
> does not appear, nor is he mentioned as a contemporary, in either
'The
> Hobbit' or the LOTR trilogy.
>
> Now, one *could* come up with a MEPBM scenario set at the time of
the
> Goblin Wars, and place Durin VI at the head of the Dwarves. Heck,
that
> might even make the nation playable...
>
> -ED \1/

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