Bree 23 and VP Poll...?

Good read, like many I'm sure it's enlightening to read about other games going on, like any fan, I suppose.

But something has been bugging me for a while now, and no, I don't think the first article planted the seed, it's been nagging for months....

The vast majority of comments in regards to VP's and the "Individual Win" are negative. "It's a team game" and reminders of the bad old GSI days when allies would pillage allies, supposedly for the highly valued GWC's. But, everywhere I go I keep hearing about "winning". The diatribe against agents and the play-by-play of the Gunboat game both mentioned either winning or placing. Almost every game I've been in in the last 2 years has seen players openly discuss the concept of being the "winner", either neutrals or allegiance players trying to woo my neutral nation.

So what is it? Are players like me who care not a whit for VP's, and actually shudder at the thought of having their nation listed on the front of allies pdf's for fear they'd consider my efforts less than stellar and selfish in some miniscule minority? Do the rest of the players simply roll their eyes as we sanctimoniously natter on about our "childish" prattle, and then simply continue along their attempts at securing top spot once we've moved off? I'm serious! Recently, I picked up a neutral in the Early Game and an allied player was quite confident that I would have the best chance of "winning" if I joined their side. I was so moved I attacked them immediately thereafter...and, in what might only be a coincidence, the "superior" "team" dropped within 2 turns...

So as to come clean with my potential snootiness, I consider VP's to be merely a transitory guage of relative strengths within the game that are only meaningful in the remotest sense of triviality and only rarely make an impact on a serious player's strategy. I've done some work in this regard myself, one game I tracked the VP's of all nations for the first 15 turns, including the 12 players on my side and an average of 5 enemy players after I'd made the request for the information for purely academic reasons. I wasn't able to make any meaningful determinations between the numbers and the real game situation, and was actually led towards devising a completely different turn-by-turn based scoring system based on the actual orders given and their results (some may remember this...). Just to go on record, my proudest game netted me a disappointing 500 VP's...500 was disappointing because I'd have rathered my DS Duns with their 4th allied-supplied new capital would end up with 400, but some randomly assigned (stupid) "VC" for a randomly (stupidly) assigned character death must have occured to net me the unwanted extra 100. I've also been in a game where I ended up 2nd and resisted to the end various allies attempts to stack my nation for victory simply because it would have been a neat result (a DS Rhudaur). I consider it uncouth to even discuss VP's and the concept of an individual "winner".

Am I really as alone as I feel these days?

Regards,

Brad Brunet

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brad,

That is part of the beauty of the article I wrote (If I do say so
myself.)

The vast majority of people that I consulted and told of the article
said..."what do I care about VPs?" I even asked myself the question
before writing the article. Most people don't care to place in the
top 3 and don't strive to meet individual VCs. But I think I have
shown a twist that gives players an added strategy window to look
through.

I fully agree with you, these are team games and VPs are just thrown
in to show some scale of success. Since they are there, however,
don't you agree that we should see what they show us besides who has
the strongest-well rounded nation?

Gary

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Brad Brunet" <bbrunec296@r...>
wrote:

Good read, like many I'm sure it's enlightening to read about other

games going on, like any fan, I suppose.

But something has been bugging me for a while now, and no, I don't

think the first article planted the seed, it's been nagging for
months....

The vast majority of comments in regards to VP's and

the "Individual Win" are negative. "It's a team game" and reminders
of the bad old GSI days when allies would pillage allies, supposedly
for the highly valued GWC's. But, everywhere I go I keep hearing
about "winning". The diatribe against agents and the play-by-play of
the Gunboat game both mentioned either winning or placing. Almost
every game I've been in in the last 2 years has seen players openly
discuss the concept of being the "winner", either neutrals or
allegiance players trying to woo my neutral nation.

So what is it? Are players like me who care not a whit for VP's,

and actually shudder at the thought of having their nation listed on
the front of allies pdf's for fear they'd consider my efforts less
than stellar and selfish in some miniscule minority? Do the rest of
the players simply roll their eyes as we sanctimoniously natter on
about our "childish" prattle, and then simply continue along their
attempts at securing top spot once we've moved off? I'm serious!
Recently, I picked up a neutral in the Early Game and an allied
player was quite confident that I would have the best chance
of "winning" if I joined their side. I was so moved I attacked them
immediately thereafter...and, in what might only be a coincidence,
the "superior" "team" dropped within 2 turns...

So as to come clean with my potential snootiness, I consider VP's

to be merely a transitory guage of relative strengths within the game
that are only meaningful in the remotest sense of triviality and only
rarely make an impact on a serious player's strategy. I've done some
work in this regard myself, one game I tracked the VP's of all
nations for the first 15 turns, including the 12 players on my side
and an average of 5 enemy players after I'd made the request for the
information for purely academic reasons. I wasn't able to make any
meaningful determinations between the numbers and the real game
situation, and was actually led towards devising a completely
different turn-by-turn based scoring system based on the actual
orders given and their results (some may remember this...). Just to
go on record, my proudest game netted me a disappointing 500
VP's...500 was disappointing because I'd have rathered my DS Duns
with their 4th allied-supplied new capital would end up with 400, but
some randomly assigned (stupid) "VC" for a randomly (stupidly)
assigned character death must have occured to net me the unwanted
extra 100. I've also been in a game where I ended up 2nd and
resisted to the end various allies attempts to stack my nation for
victory simply because it would have been a neat result (a DS
Rhudaur). I consider it uncouth to even discuss VP's and the concept
of an individual "winner".

···

Am I really as alone as I feel these days?

Regards,

Brad Brunet

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree entirely. I mentioned that they would "rarely" affect strategy..not
never. I've personally led assaults of various natures on specific nations
based solely on their VP score. The thinking being: If we just burned
this, and annihilated that army, and stole this much, and they're still
scoring THAT...then... But I've also done some research into them, and I
have an intuitive feel for the possible direction potential follow-up's to
your intro article can go...and, (obviously..:wink: have an opinion on the
relative value of such work I'd guage this value in the amount of time and
effort one must spend, each and every turn, compiling and formulating VP's,
compared to the strategic value of any results of such work. Even
attempting to analyze VP's within a game, while on a team, can only be of
use if you are working in coordination with an undeclared neutral, and thus
have access to not only his total and pdf, but also the top 3 listed on his
pdf... Now, if all the potentials were already programmed into some super
pdf parsing program and simple projections merely outputted, great...I don't
want to be involved in the project that has to write that program though! :wink:

But I am gladdened to hear of your behind the scenes results regarding the
response to your requests, and they answer to my main point that yes, the
vast majority of players do not consider amassing VP's to be of importance.
Phew...!

Brad

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "GearonSkywalker" <garyaswegan@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 7:19 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Bree 23 and VP Poll...?

Brad,
don't you agree that we should see what they show us besides who has
the strongest-well rounded nation?

Gary