Buying and selling

mepbmlist
#1

Hi,
I'd welcome your thoughts on the execution of buy and sell orders. If,
for
instance, I were to start with a zero treasury and buy goods worth
10,000 gold before selling 20,000 worth of goods, what would happen?
Would (a) my tax go up to cover the purchase, with the 20k from sales
going into the treasury - or would the purchase be covered by the sale?

Colin.

#2

You start with a zero treasury, then collect taxes, and only then do
buys and sells happen. So your taxes would (probably) cover the
purchase. Then you sell stuff. Then you pay salaries, etc.

Tony Z

···

On Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 03:34:41PM +0000, Colin Forbes wrote:

Hi,
I'd welcome your thoughts on the execution of buy and sell orders. If,
for
instance, I were to start with a zero treasury and buy goods worth
10,000 gold before selling 20,000 worth of goods, what would happen?
Would (a) my tax go up to cover the purchase, with the 20k from sales
going into the treasury - or would the purchase be covered by the sale?

--
"The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning;
His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,
And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning."
The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E. Housman

#3

Your buy and sells would execute before your taxation. Think of
maintenence/taxation/food consumption as 399 order. Something like that.

So yeah, literally you could buy a wad of stuff, screwup your sell, and
bankrupt yourself all in one turn. If you don't like living on the wild
side, issue a 215 order in case someone's secret agent man challenges you
after seeing this message.

Morph

···

Hi,
I'd welcome your thoughts on the execution of buy and sell orders. If,
for
instance, I were to start with a zero treasury and buy goods worth
10,000 gold before selling 20,000 worth of goods, what would happen?
Would (a) my tax go up to cover the purchase, with the 20k from sales
going into the treasury - or would the purchase be covered by the sale?

#4

Morpheus wrote:

Your buy and sells would execute before your taxation.

Tony Z wrote ...

You start with a zero treasury, then collect taxes, and only then do
buys and sells happen. So your taxes would (probably) cover the
purchase. Then you sell stuff. Then you pay salaries, etc.

Exactly the sort of conflicting opinions I thought this subject would
raise! :slight_smile: In the circumstances I'm looking at, I want to raise
taxation by buying goods. I know this works - the question is whether
my income from sales will be spent on purchasing or (if sales happen
after buys) the money from sales will go into my treasury after the
buys have raised my tax rate.

Anyone else? :slight_smile:

Colin.

#5

Colin

I am not sure if income from sales can be used to buy goods with. The way to
make sure is after tax, sells and buys you leave yourself with enough money
and the extra income gained from the increase in Tax Rate to cover your
maintenence within a couple of gold.

I do have a feeling though that sales can be used to buy goods. I am
positive I did it with my Khand Easterlings a while back.

Thomas

···

Exactly the sort of conflicting opinions I thought this subject would
raise! :slight_smile: In the circumstances I'm looking at, I want to raise
taxation by buying goods. I know this works - the question is whether
my income from sales will be spent on purchasing or (if sales happen
after buys) the money from sales will go into my treasury after the
buys have raised my tax rate.

Anyone else? :slight_smile:

Colin.

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#6

You are definitely correct about this being a hot topic whenever it
is discussed. The topic of market buy/sells has been bantered about
numerous times between myself and several of the people with whom I
team up for grudge games.

Here is my opinion on the issue:

1) Turn begins with 0 gold in treasury
2) Receive tax & gold mine income
3) Perform market buys (limited to gold in treasury)
4) Maintain nation (armies, characters, fortifications, etc)

Since I have never experienced this nor spoken with someone who ran a
nation trying to spend more on a market buy than they have in their
treasury and receive in income, I can't answer this based on fact.
It is my belief that your market purchase will be limited by the
total of your starting treasury plus income. I am betting that a
purchase would be reduced to this amount. I seem to recall rumors of
nations bankrupting as a result of errors in the buy quantities, but
this could occur without exceeding the available funds. I do not
believe that a forced tax increase will occur until your nation is
forced to pay maintenance. Therefore, if you want to get a forced
tax increase, a market sale would need to be taken into account for
determining this increase.

Good luck!

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "loraelin" <colin@t...> wrote:

Exactly the sort of conflicting opinions I thought this subject

would

raise! :slight_smile: In the circumstances I'm looking at, I want to raise
taxation by buying goods. I know this works - the question is

whether

my income from sales will be spent on purchasing or (if sales

happen

···

after buys) the money from sales will go into my treasury after the
buys have raised my tax rate.

Anyone else? :slight_smile:

Colin.

#7

Well there are always lots of conflicting opinions and never any
conflicting facts (just conflicting views of them).

So by the rules the order is:

1) Changing of Taxation rates by Order 300
2) Taxation and Production occurs (so you get your base tax revenue!)
3) Resource buys
4) Resource sales
5) Pay maintenance

So yes, you can manipulate the system into forcing a tax rate rise. Blunt
but possible. Effectively your only buy limit would be governed by what
you started with in the bank plus what tax/gold production you have. So
technically deficits aren't considered here.

Why would you not want to do this: (*opinions*)

1) You could be vulnerable to a challenge to the buying character. Yes,
unlikely, but if it happens your kingdom could bellyup if you bought more
resources than a raise to 100% taxation could handle. Best to do either a
215 with the purchaser or have the same character do both the buy and
sale if it's two orders total.

2) I've gotten to believe that a high level comm can not only be more
successful (compared to a lower one) in raising tax rates, but that he
could also minimize the LOYALTY DROP suffered. I've noticed I've suffered
significantly less loyalty loss in testing c40s vs c70s.

And once I did see a nation buy a lot of stuff only to forget he had a
helluva deficit and that he needed to do a sale. He bankrupted himself
and he was a leading position. I know the guy wanted to kick himself. So
be careful.

···

Morpheus wrote:

Your buy and sells would execute before your taxation.

Tony Z wrote ...

You start with a zero treasury, then collect taxes, and only then do
buys and sells happen. So your taxes would (probably) cover the
purchase. Then you sell stuff. Then you pay salaries, etc.

Exactly the sort of conflicting opinions I thought this subject would
raise! :slight_smile: In the circumstances I'm looking at, I want to raise
taxation by buying goods. I know this works - the question is whether
my income from sales will be spent on purchasing or (if sales happen
after buys) the money from sales will go into my treasury after the
buys have raised my tax rate.

Anyone else? :slight_smile:

Colin.

#8

Forced raises happen after all sales and purchases.

Tony Z

···

On Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 05:39:06PM -0000, loraelin wrote:

Morpheus wrote:
> Your buy and sells would execute before your taxation.

Tony Z wrote ...
> You start with a zero treasury, then collect taxes, and only then do
> buys and sells happen. So your taxes would (probably) cover the
> purchase. Then you sell stuff. Then you pay salaries, etc.

Exactly the sort of conflicting opinions I thought this subject would
raise! :slight_smile: In the circumstances I'm looking at, I want to raise
taxation by buying goods. I know this works - the question is whether
my income from sales will be spent on purchasing or (if sales happen
after buys) the money from sales will go into my treasury after the
buys have raised my tax rate.

--
"The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning;
His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,
And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning."
The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E. Housman

#9

You are definitely correct about this being a hot topic whenever it
is discussed. The topic of market buy/sells has been bantered about
numerous times between myself and several of the people with whom I
team up for grudge games.

Here is my opinion on the issue:

1) Turn begins with 0 gold in treasury
2) Receive tax & gold mine income
3) Perform market buys (limited to gold in treasury)
4) Maintain nation (armies, characters, fortifications, etc)

Since I have never experienced this nor spoken with someone who ran a
nation trying to spend more on a market buy than they have in their
treasury and receive in income, I can't answer this based on fact.

"I'm free, Mr. Peacock..." Yus. twas I, I dunnit yer Honour. Game 29 Fire King buying myself into bankruptcy. Had the NatSell in to cover the buy in the draft orders, then at last minute, dropped the NatSell for some other order (it was the team mates, yer Honour, them as made me do it...) forgetting that the buy hung upon it.

Relevant pdfs uploaded for your analysis:

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/12.pdf

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/13.pdf

It is my belief that your market purchase will be limited by the
total of your starting treasury plus income. I am betting that a
purchase would be reduced to this amount. I seem to recall rumors of
nations bankrupting as a result of errors in the buy quantities, but
this could occur without exceeding the available funds. I do not
believe that a forced tax increase will occur until your nation is
forced to pay maintenance. Therefore, if you want to get a forced
tax increase, a market sale would need to be taken into account for
determining this increase.

Could be, take a look at the pdfs and let me know what you think.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 07:34 PM 02-01-02, mrchris66 wrote:

#10

It certainly is possible to arange for a forced tax increase. Playing the Noldor & trying to make sure that I didn't have too much money left in the bank, I bought mounts. Unfortunately I calculated everything on the sell price so I bought rather more than I should. While this didn't bankrupt me, it did increase my tax rate.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Morpheus
  To: ListMEPBM
  Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Buying and selling

  Well there are always lots of conflicting opinions and never any
  conflicting facts (just conflicting views of them).

  So by the rules the order is:

  1) Changing of Taxation rates by Order 300
  2) Taxation and Production occurs (so you get your base tax revenue!)
  3) Resource buys
  4) Resource sales
  5) Pay maintenance

  So yes, you can manipulate the system into forcing a tax rate rise. Blunt
  but possible. Effectively your only buy limit would be governed by what
  you started with in the bank plus what tax/gold production you have. So
  technically deficits aren't considered here.

  Why would you not want to do this: (*opinions*)

  1) You could be vulnerable to a challenge to the buying character. Yes,
  unlikely, but if it happens your kingdom could bellyup if you bought more
  resources than a raise to 100% taxation could handle. Best to do either a
  215 with the purchaser or have the same character do both the buy and
  sale if it's two orders total.

  2) I've gotten to believe that a high level comm can not only be more
  successful (compared to a lower one) in raising tax rates, but that he
  could also minimize the LOYALTY DROP suffered. I've noticed I've suffered
  significantly less loyalty loss in testing c40s vs c70s.

  And once I did see a nation buy a lot of stuff only to forget he had a
  helluva deficit and that he needed to do a sale. He bankrupted himself
  and he was a leading position. I know the guy wanted to kick himself. So
  be careful.

  >Morpheus wrote:
  >> Your buy and sells would execute before your taxation.
  >
  >Tony Z wrote ...
  >> You start with a zero treasury, then collect taxes, and only then do
  >> buys and sells happen. So your taxes would (probably) cover the
  >> purchase. Then you sell stuff. Then you pay salaries, etc.
  >
  >Exactly the sort of conflicting opinions I thought this subject would
  >raise! :slight_smile: In the circumstances I'm looking at, I want to raise
  >taxation by buying goods. I know this works - the question is whether
  >my income from sales will be spent on purchasing or (if sales happen
  >after buys) the money from sales will go into my treasury after the
  >buys have raised my tax rate.
  >
  >Anyone else? :slight_smile:
  >
  >Colin.

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#11

Orders are executed in numerical order: all 300s before all 315s, all
315s before all 325s, and so on.

Income is collected between orders 300 and 315, so it is entirely
possible to burn more cash than it is possible to recover later through
a tax hike. That is the danger of playing market games.

cheers,

Marc

#12

--- Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@eskimo.com> ha scritto: >

> Exactly the sort of conflicting opinions I thought
this subject would
> raise! :slight_smile: In the circumstances I'm looking at, I
want to raise
> taxation by buying goods. I know this works - the
question is whether
> my income from sales will be spent on purchasing
or (if sales happen
> after buys) the money from sales will go into my
treasury after the
> buys have raised my tax rate.

Forced raises happen after all sales and purchases.

Tony Z

Maybe I'm not the only good player in the world :slight_smile: It
looks Tony Z could be too

I Have never tried to do it, But I have seen in some
reports taxes to raise over by Buying without all the
money necessary to do it.

Goodsense(even if sometimes doesn't work) should
bring everybody to the answer of Tony Z.

           Ciao,
                     Renato.

···

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