Can we salvage the Open Game format?

I've just been in yet another terribly disappointing game. "Victory" on
turn 8. I was one of three neutrals that declared FP, a 4th was just about
to. Communication from the DS was virtually nil throughout the game
despite proactive attempts from the neutrals to talk to them. DS had drops
on turn 2, including it seems, their "experienced" players. BlS, ClL and
QAv spoke to me once or twice as a neutral Corsair, but all seemed either
brand new players, and/or newish standby players, with absolutely nobody on
their team giving them any help. DrL seemed to be the only player with a
little experience, able to talk to us at the end of the game.

Here's Don Palmer after summing up that game on the board:

"Now on to more general matters, regarding the state of the "Open" scenario.
I will not be joining any open games in the future. Why? I have now
completed 4 open games of MEPBM - two 1650, two 2950. In 3 of 4, the teams
seemed very unevenly matched as to starting experience, strength, and
cohesion. Also, the split of the neutrals on all cases ended up being
lopsided in favor of one side or the other. In all 3 games, it was over by
turn 11 with concession, me being on the winning side 2 out of 3.

In all cases, the games were hardly "fun". When on the winning side, things
seemed to be going so easy that it was like we were playing a poor computer
AI, and in reality the other side experienced SS turns and drops early on
that hamstrung them further. On the losing side, fighting a battle when you
have an instant drop/SS turn without a heads-up from that player, perhaps a
missed turn or 2, as well as non-communicative allies, was frustrating as well.
As one of our starting players in game 23 said upon stating he was dropping
on T4, the games was about as fun as electro-shock therapy.

I do not know what can be done to improve the chances of getting in a
competitive, enjoyable open scenario- but I do know that my experience with
them has left me unsatisfied. For games that last 5-11 turns, that is not
only a waste of money (avg. $65 in turn fees), but more importantly a waste
of valuable time in reading and posting emails to your group, stating and
debating merits of various plans and orders, only to see the game fall
apart quickly. That is time better spent on a different scenario (grudge),
or entirely different game, IMHO."

Now if I had a penny for every time I've heard "I only play grudge games
now" I'd be a rich man. I fully sympathise with Don's reaction, but I
think it's something we need to attempt to deal with. There's now a
hemorrhage of experienced players from the Open games. I play open games
because most of the friends I have in grudge games are people I've
originally met in open games. I also think that those of us who have been
playing for years should consider it a duty to encourage new players in the
game... but the Noble Spirit of Duty wears bit thin when games end on turn
8, and you feel like you've spent a hell of a lot of money to end up bored,
and see other experienced players abandon the sinking ship.

Can we salvage the situation?

The Player Rating System, as first debated a couple of years ago, was I
hoped, something that might help to balance teams. It didn't work for that
purpose, but rather than say why, I'll just point out that some of those
who were actively opposed to the PRS in all forms, are among those saying
"I'll only play grudge games now". So let's see if we can find another way...

One suggestion which has come up over the years is an Insurance
policy: Turn fees would be increased, but you'd get some money back if the
game ended prematurely. ME Games always seemed to me to be negative about
this, as they didn't want to risk losing money. But I suspect that if the
Open game problem is not addressed somehow, they will be losing money
invisibly - we're going to end up with a core of grudge team players, and
an itinerant population of newbies who come in for one miserable game, then
never darken Middle Earth's doorstep again. My own reservation about an
Insurance policy is that though it would compensate financially, it would
not compensate for the disappointment.

Is there a simple, practical mechanism that could improve open
games? Here's a proposal as a discussion starter:

Open Game Win Tickets: In an Open Game (sign up on your own, list of
preferred nations submitted to GM, neutrals not pre-aligned) those on the
winning team at game end get given an Open Game Win Ticket. When ME games
have issued 25+ such tickets they advertise a "Winners Open Game", you use
your ticket to gain entry, otherwise as per a usual open game. That
would mean that you play one or two Ordinary Open games, then a Winners
Open. If your ordinary game collapses early, you have the compensation of
knowing that in your next game you will at least be playing against those
who've got a battle stripe. Such a scheme might reward experienced players
for coming back into open games.

[]
   Laurence G.Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

<http://www.buav.org/campaigns/primates/index.html>
Zero Option - end the use of primates in research

http://www.buav.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One suggestion which has come up over the years is
an Insurance
policy: Turn fees would be increased, but you'd get
some money back if the
game ended prematurely. ME Games always seemed to
me to be negative about
this, as they didn't want to risk losing money. But
I suspect that if the
Open game problem is not addressed somehow, they
will be losing money
invisibly - we're going to end up with a core of
grudge team players, and
an itinerant population of newbies who come in for
one miserable game, then
never darken Middle Earth's doorstep again. My own
reservation about an
Insurance policy is that though it would compensate
financially, it would
not compensate for the disappointment.

Something must be done, I agree. But for example, say
player X only plays with his WC grudge team, only has
time and money for one game and plays with his
friends. You are going to jack up his turn fees for
insurance he doesn't need. That's not fair, just so
some players will play better open games. There are
other similar examples, but you get my point.

I unfortunately do not have many suggestions, except
the ME may be able to better balance open games. Some
people request specific nations and that can't be
helped, but I imagine some, like me in open games,
give a list for either DS or FP nations (as I did in
the game in your example where I was Riders). If
possible, ME Games could try to make sure not all the
experienced players were on one side. Maybe that's not
in their or the players interest, I don't know.

JB

···

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There are a number of ways that an Insurance scheme could be worked: It
could be an optional surcharge - your grudge team player above could choose
not to play it.

[]
   Laurence G.Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

<http://www.buav.org/campaigns/primates/index.html>
Zero Option - end the use of primates in research

http://www.buav.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

At 15:43 26/05/2005, John Briggs wrote:

Something must be done, I agree. But for example, say
player X only plays with his WC grudge team, only has
time and money for one game and plays with his
friends. You are going to jack up his turn fees for
insurance he doesn't need. That's not fair, just so
some players will play better open games.

We've offered 12v12 individual games but no-one bit on that format.

Basically Neutrals are the problem (IMO as a player). I've played lots of games where the entire outcome of the game was pretty much determined by Neutrals and which side they swung to. I've seen many teams that don't want to chat to the neutrals - you have to sweat blood to get some communication going.

We could have an 11v11 with 3 neutrals game - that would reduce the impact of the Neutrals.

Note Neutrals are very popular. 2950 I get around 10 players picking them for each game (fortunately some are happy to play non-Neutrals but even so there is something to be said for reducing the strength of Neutrals.

Is this because Neutrals are strong (IMO yes - even the lowly Rhun Easterlings in 2950). Their ability to sit and develop for 10 turns is very strong and when they do join a side their 2000 HC st/st with 50 WMs or 6 x 60 Rank Ems has an impact! :slight_smile:

Some

people request specific nations and that can't be
helped, but I imagine some, like me in open games,
give a list for either DS or FP nations (as I did in
the game in your example where I was Riders). If
possible, ME Games could try to make sure not all the
experienced players were on one side. Maybe that's not
in their or the players interest, I don't know.

We do balance the games - but there's nothing we can do to control the actual game itself. I usually spend about 1 hour looking at the teams and pushing "good players" onto a different side to make sure the 10 and 10 teams are fair. It's an art not a science so it doesn't always work. (Eg a quality player recently had a pay rise= more work and had to drop that game for a while. That squiffed the side).

As to "saving the open format" some games are decided by Neutrals but others are very much a "fair" divide of the neutrals 2v3 and quality games in that manner.

Hope that give some feedback on what I think could be done here - other ideas welcome.

Clint

We've offered 12v12 individual games but no-one bit on that format.

Basically Neutrals are the problem (IMO as a player). I've played lots of
games where the entire outcome of the game was pretty much determined by
Neutrals and which side they swung to.

Neutrals are often used as the excuse for losing as well though. I played
in a game where one neutral dropped, the other 4 all declared against
us. We went on to win. At the time of the 4th declaration we were as
miserable as sin, but we pulled ourselves together, showed a bit of bottle,
and in the end it was an exhilarating game. So I disagree that the
essential problem is neutrals - in the game I've just completed, and in
other games people have talked to me about recently, neutrals have declared
one way because the other team very quickly became seen as no hopers.

If you read many of the articles about neutrals, and pick up what seems to
be the common consensus of opinion, it's considered "reasonable" for a
neutral to declare around turn 10, and "getting late" by around turn
12. In my last game, and in some others, neutrals felt they have to jump
early in case the game was not going to last that long!

I've seen many teams that don't
want to chat to the neutrals - you have to sweat blood to get some
communication going.

We could have an 11v11 with 3 neutrals game - that would reduce the impact
of the Neutrals.

Yes. I think that might help a little, but I think it's a sad measure to
have to take. It's making the game easier to accommodate weak play, we've
got Five Armies for that.

As to "saving the open format" some games are decided by Neutrals but
others are very much a "fair" divide of the neutrals 2v3 and quality games
in that manner.

Losers belly ache about losing due to the neutrals' declarations. Winners,
never in my recollection say, "We won it because the neutrals declared for
us." It's often good play, and good diplomacy in the first place that wins
the neutrals over. Neutrals declaring the same way, and declaring very
early (when their relative impact is greater) is a symptom of the problem
now with open games, not the primary cause.

You point out that neutrals are popular in open games (I didn't know
that.) I've chosen them habitually in open games, not because they're
powerful, but because they give me a chance to see if either team has any
chance of winning. In games where one team does not even talk to you, the
declaration decision is fairly straightforward... and no surprise when all
neutrals go the same way. If I wanted to play in an atmosphere of monastic
silence, I'd play Gunboat.

Hope that give some feedback on what I think could be done here - other
ideas welcome.

So what about my "Open Game Win Tickets" proposal? Is that, or some
variation upon it feasible?

[]
   Laurence G.Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

<http://www.buav.org/campaigns/primates/index.html>
Zero Option - end the use of primates in research

http://www.buav.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

At 01:04 27/05/2005, ME Games Ltd wrote:

>Hope that give some feedback on what I think could be done here - other
>ideas welcome.

So what about my "Open Game Win Tickets" proposal? Is that, or some
variation upon it feasible?

Try it again... I'm in the mid of FTF w/endightess and brain power has been used up that way

Clint

At the end of my originating post, which you should perhaps dig out as it
set a context:

Is there a simple, practical mechanism that could improve open
games? Here's a proposal as a discussion starter:

Open Game Win Tickets: In an Open Game (sign up on your own, list of
preferred nations submitted to GM, neutrals not pre-aligned) those on the
winning team at game end get given an Open Game Win Ticket. When ME games
have issued 25+ such tickets they advertise a "Winners Open Game", you use
your ticket to gain entry, otherwise as per a usual open game. That
would mean that you play one or two Ordinary Open games, then a Winners
Open. If your ordinary game collapses early, you have the compensation of
knowing that in your next game you will at least be playing against those
who've got a battle stripe. Such a scheme might reward experienced players
for coming back into open games.

[]
   Laurence G.Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

<http://www.buav.org/campaigns/primates/index.html>
Zero Option - end the use of primates in research

http://www.buav.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

At 02:43 27/05/2005, ME Games Ltd wrote:

> >Hope that give some feedback on what I think could be done here - other
> >ideas welcome.
>
>So what about my "Open Game Win Tickets" proposal? Is that, or some
>variation upon it feasible?

Try it again... I'm in the mid of FTF w/endightess and brain power has been
used up that way

Open Game Win Tickets: In an Open Game (sign up on your own, list of
preferred nations submitted to GM, neutrals not pre-aligned) those on the
winning team at game end get given an Open Game Win Ticket. When ME games
have issued 25+ such tickets they advertise a "Winners Open Game", you use
your ticket to gain entry, otherwise as per a usual open game. That
would mean that you play one or two Ordinary Open games, then a Winners
Open. If your ordinary game collapses early, you have the compensation of
knowing that in your next game you will at least be playing against those
who've got a battle stripe. Such a scheme might reward experienced players
for coming back into open games.

Anyone like this enough to want to do it?

Clint