Changes I suggested

mepbmlist
#1

Since I started the big thread on Saturday, there has been around 200
posts. That's good since it gets the thinking juices flowing.

Most of the changes I have proposed most people acknowlegded ar a good
area for possible improvement. Everybody it seems has some problem
with the military system and accept that there is a problem with
caravans. The problem of caravans is that they are need to keep
nations in play. To this end I would like to propose the following
changes for discussion.

1) Leave battles as they are. Clint is correct that the battles need
to be resolved in one round.

2) Allow backup co's to issue supporting tactics. For instance,
ordering a charge, but the Backup orders the archers to ambush. This
would provide the combined arms effect I think should exist and
benefit players who employ employ muliple commanders.

3) Allow only 4 types of troops. Cavalry, Infantry, Archers, and MA.
To make HC or HI you need armor. Also the relative values need to be
closer. Infantry is say a 8/8 and then they get armor and weapon
bonuses to make them HI or 10.4/10.4 in bronze bronze. To further this
end, the program should easily be able to carve out heavy troop
minimum levels from totals. A heavy troop need to be at least bronze
bronze. If the minimum combined armor weapon levels are 30+/30+ then
everybody is heavy. If through addition recruiting the levels go to
say 25/25 then some of the troops become light to make the remainder
30/30. Man at Arms are cheap and Archers get a first volley. The
values can be adjusted to keep game balance.

4) To prevent armies from disbanding when a leader is kidnaped or
assassinate (which is ludicrous) a simple formula can be implimented.
Take the morale of the army and subtract it from 100. That is the
precentage of people who leave. Thus a 90 morale army would only lose
10% and a 30 morale army 70%. Each turn until a new CO shows up the
morale drops 10%. Thus even 100 morale armies we eventually suffer
loses. A new order Take command sat 778 Take command. The issuing CO
takes control of the army or company.

5) To add the flavor I have been screaming about, give each nation a
special troop type. Since we are eliminating 2 recurit order 1 of the
400/404 and 408/412 one of the orders can be recuit special troop
types. Nations can be broken down into 4 types: men nations(Cardolan,
Blind Sorcerer, Harad and so on), Elven nations (Noldo and Sinda),
Dunadan (NG,SG and Arthedain), and Orc Nations
(Dragon,Dog,Fire,Ice,and Dark). The witch king employed both orc and
men so there special troop type is recruiting either type.

To further this end lets mention the special types

Elves clearly should have an elite archer called a Silvan Scout Archer
The Dunedain per Tolkien were heavy infrantry oriented. Check out the
Battle of the Gladden Fields and Celebrant. A lot of detail is is
given in Gladder Fields on fighting technique. The Dunedain fought
behind a shield wall with men firing steel numenerion bows. The bows
were they droped and sword drawn.

Sorry, I will finish this later on

Lucas

#2

Lots of good points here - thoughts?

Clint

···

Since I started the big thread on Saturday, there has been around 200
posts. That's good since it gets the thinking juices flowing.

Most of the changes I have proposed most people acknowlegded ar a good
area for possible improvement. Everybody it seems has some problem
with the military system and accept that there is a problem with
caravans. The problem of caravans is that they are need to keep
nations in play. To this end I would like to propose the following
changes for discussion.

1) Leave battles as they are. Clint is correct that the battles need
to be resolved in one round.

2) Allow backup co's to issue supporting tactics. For instance,
ordering a charge, but the Backup orders the archers to ambush. This
would provide the combined arms effect I think should exist and
benefit players who employ employ muliple commanders.

3) Allow only 4 types of troops. Cavalry, Infantry, Archers, and MA.
To make HC or HI you need armor. Also the relative values need to be
closer. Infantry is say a 8/8 and then they get armor and weapon
bonuses to make them HI or 10.4/10.4 in bronze bronze. To further this
end, the program should easily be able to carve out heavy troop
minimum levels from totals. A heavy troop need to be at least bronze
bronze. If the minimum combined armor weapon levels are 30+/30+ then
everybody is heavy. If through addition recruiting the levels go to
say 25/25 then some of the troops become light to make the remainder
30/30. Man at Arms are cheap and Archers get a first volley. The
values can be adjusted to keep game balance.

4) To prevent armies from disbanding when a leader is kidnaped or
assassinate (which is ludicrous) a simple formula can be implimented.
Take the morale of the army and subtract it from 100. That is the
precentage of people who leave. Thus a 90 morale army would only lose
10% and a 30 morale army 70%. Each turn until a new CO shows up the
morale drops 10%. Thus even 100 morale armies we eventually suffer
loses. A new order Take command sat 778 Take command. The issuing CO
takes control of the army or company.

5) To add the flavor I have been screaming about, give each nation a
special troop type. Since we are eliminating 2 recurit order 1 of the
400/404 and 408/412 one of the orders can be recuit special troop
types. Nations can be broken down into 4 types: men nations(Cardolan,
Blind Sorcerer, Harad and so on), Elven nations (Noldo and Sinda),
Dunadan (NG,SG and Arthedain), and Orc Nations
(Dragon,Dog,Fire,Ice,and Dark). The witch king employed both orc and
men so there special troop type is recruiting either type.

To further this end lets mention the special types

Elves clearly should have an elite archer called a Silvan Scout Archer
The Dunedain per Tolkien were heavy infrantry oriented. Check out the
Battle of the Gladden Fields and Celebrant. A lot of detail is is
given in Gladder Fields on fighting technique. The Dunedain fought
behind a shield wall with men firing steel numenerion bows. The bows
were they droped and sword drawn.

Sorry, I will finish this later on

Lucas

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#3

Lots of good points here - thoughts?

> 1) Leave battles as they are. Clint is correct that the battles need
> to be resolved in one round.

Agreed. Note that Tolkien's battles generally are resolved very
quickly. (Morannon is an exception, but then how many of
our games have seen huge repeated battles at Morannon.)

> 2) Allow backup co's to issue supporting tactics. For instance,
> ordering a charge, but the Backup orders the archers to ambush. This
> would provide the combined arms effect I think should exist and
> benefit players who employ employ muliple commanders.

Yes.

> 3) Allow only 4 types of troops. Cavalry, Infantry, Archers, and MA.
> To make HC or HI you need armor. Also the relative values need to be
> closer. Infantry is say a 8/8 and then they get armor and weapon
> bonuses to make them HI or 10.4/10.4 in bronze bronze. To further this
> end, the program should easily be able to carve out heavy troop
> minimum levels from totals. A heavy troop need to be at least bronze
> bronze. If the minimum combined armor weapon levels are 30+/30+ then
> everybody is heavy. If through addition recruiting the levels go to
> say 25/25 then some of the troops become light to make the remainder
> 30/30. Man at Arms are cheap and Archers get a first volley. The
> values can be adjusted to keep game balance.

I like this, insofar as I understand it.

("Make Armor", by the way, needs to be a single order that makes
the armor and puts it on the troops, as a non-command commander order
Otherwise it's totally worthless instead of just of marginal utility.)

> 4) To prevent armies from disbanding when a leader is kidnaped or
> assassinate (which is ludicrous) a simple formula can be implimented.
> Take the morale of the army and subtract it from 100. That is the
> precentage of people who leave. Thus a 90 morale army would only lose
> 10% and a 30 morale army 70%. Each turn until a new CO shows up the
> morale drops 10%. Thus even 100 morale armies we eventually suffer
> loses. A new order Take command sat 778 Take command. The issuing CO
> takes control of the army or company.

How about an 878 MovComm, Move and Take Command.

> 5) To add the flavor I have been screaming about, give each nation a
> special troop type. Since we are eliminating 2 recurit order 1 of the
> 400/404 and 408/412 one of the orders can be recuit special troop
> types. Nations can be broken down into 4 types: men nations(Cardolan,
> Blind Sorcerer, Harad and so on), Elven nations (Noldo and Sinda),
> Dunadan (NG,SG and Arthedain), and Orc Nations
> (Dragon,Dog,Fire,Ice,and Dark). The witch king employed both orc and
> men so there special troop type is recruiting either type.

Don't forget Dwarves (and we just might have some evil dwarves around,
too -- in the Last Alliance "only elves were undivided")

> To further this end lets mention the special types
>
> Elves clearly should have an elite archer called a Silvan Scout Archer
> The Dunedain per Tolkien were heavy infrantry oriented. Check out the
> Battle of the Gladden Fields and Celebrant. A lot of detail is is
> given in Gladder Fields on fighting technique. The Dunedain fought
> behind a shield wall with men firing steel numenerion bows. The bows
> were they droped and sword drawn.

Slightly different troop types for various nations, I think, would work
best. (Rohan HC, Dwarven HI, Dunadan heavy anything, Elven archers.)

Ors(better HI) as well as
Orcs (better LI?)

Tony Z

···

On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 05:41:13PM -0000, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

#4

Thanks, we are on the same page and that is good. I just ran out of
time typing earlier. Yes, give Duns and Easterling Chariots, require 1
horse,1 leather, one wood and give it an archer attack. Make the
mumaks require lots of mounts and leather and armor but give it a high
value. The eothraim get better cavalry. The Dog Lord gets real warg
riders say the fear factor lowers enemy morale.The orc style nations
get trolls which have strong constition and solid but not equal attack
As for my number 4 when troops get good armor and weapons the are
heavy. As more troops join without weapons or armor the move to light
status. The elite nation troop would always be separate. While every
thing need to value out to the same point total (10/10 hi costs 4 vs
5/5 costing 2) and it was easy playing balance. Implimenting these
changes would give armies flavor. It would move past the 408 400 no
weapon no armor order which seems to be automatic.

As for the gentlemen who opposed every elf having stealth. I have no
problem with every Cloud Lord recruit coming with stealth. Put limits.
Most elves are sylvan, with Sinda and Noldo lords. Sylvan get 15 Sinda
get 20 and Noldo get 25. All cloud lord characters get 10 stealth. May
a bonus to a 20. I named a cloud lord agent 40 ag with 35 stealth.
That stupidly high. Lower levels are acceptable. As for other special
types what about giving the evils a chance to name a demon,vampire or
were wolf. Several start in play on the evil side. Why not make
packages of bonus abitlites to go with special types named.

Another thing to go with these concepts is larger starting resource
levels. Give the evils more money. Give the good large levels of
brozne and steel to represent starting armories. Say 3 turns of
bronze and 1 turn of steel base on the popcenter size. A city would
have 3000 bronze and 1000 steel for instance. Also give nations
starting magical weapons in storage like the Palantir of Elostrian. A
couple of of 500 and 750 swords would not hurt since you have to spend
one order to pick up.

As for npc recruiting. The 3 istari should never be active in the
game. In Tolkien they were to work behind the scenes. There are many
characters in ICE works to add to the game. The evils have a
priesthood to Sauron. All 8 are badasses but only 2 are in play,
Angulion and Lhachlin. Make these other 6 chaps recruitable. Make
Caran Carach, Celgor, and Slyadrach recrutable. The elves of Sarlinn
and Amon Lind are potent forces to join that side of good. North
Gondor has a massive Royal Family and court which could join. The
seven Great Houses of Arthedain have powerful leaders. The would cost
more to recurit and take more actions to aquire but they do exist.
--- In mepbmlist@y..., Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@e...> wrote:

> Lots of good points here - thoughts?
>
> > 1) Leave battles as they are. Clint is correct that the battles need
> > to be resolved in one round.

Agreed. Note that Tolkien's battles generally are resolved very
quickly. (Morannon is an exception, but then how many of
our games have seen huge repeated battles at Morannon.)

> > 2) Allow backup co's to issue supporting tactics. For instance,
> > ordering a charge, but the Backup orders the archers to ambush. This
> > would provide the combined arms effect I think should exist and
> > benefit players who employ employ muliple commanders.

Yes.

> > 3) Allow only 4 types of troops. Cavalry, Infantry, Archers, and MA.
> > To make HC or HI you need armor. Also the relative values need to be
> > closer. Infantry is say a 8/8 and then they get armor and weapon
> > bonuses to make them HI or 10.4/10.4 in bronze bronze. To

further this

> > end, the program should easily be able to carve out heavy troop
> > minimum levels from totals. A heavy troop need to be at least bronze
> > bronze. If the minimum combined armor weapon levels are 30+/30+ then
> > everybody is heavy. If through addition recruiting the levels go to
> > say 25/25 then some of the troops become light to make the remainder
> > 30/30. Man at Arms are cheap and Archers get a first volley. The
> > values can be adjusted to keep game balance.

I like this, insofar as I understand it.

("Make Armor", by the way, needs to be a single order that makes
the armor and puts it on the troops, as a non-command commander order
Otherwise it's totally worthless instead of just of marginal utility.)

> > 4) To prevent armies from disbanding when a leader is kidnaped or
> > assassinate (which is ludicrous) a simple formula can be

implimented.

> > Take the morale of the army and subtract it from 100. That is the
> > precentage of people who leave. Thus a 90 morale army would only

lose

> > 10% and a 30 morale army 70%. Each turn until a new CO shows up the
> > morale drops 10%. Thus even 100 morale armies we eventually suffer
> > loses. A new order Take command sat 778 Take command. The issuing CO
> > takes control of the army or company.

How about an 878 MovComm, Move and Take Command.

> > 5) To add the flavor I have been screaming about, give each nation a
> > special troop type. Since we are eliminating 2 recurit order 1

of the

> > 400/404 and 408/412 one of the orders can be recuit special troop
> > types. Nations can be broken down into 4 types: men

nations(Cardolan,

> > Blind Sorcerer, Harad and so on), Elven nations (Noldo and Sinda),
> > Dunadan (NG,SG and Arthedain), and Orc Nations
> > (Dragon,Dog,Fire,Ice,and Dark). The witch king employed both orc and
> > men so there special troop type is recruiting either type.

Don't forget Dwarves (and we just might have some evil dwarves around,
too -- in the Last Alliance "only elves were undivided")

> > To further this end lets mention the special types
> >
> > Elves clearly should have an elite archer called a Silvan Scout

Archer

> > The Dunedain per Tolkien were heavy infrantry oriented. Check

out the

···

On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 05:41:13PM -0000, Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
> > Battle of the Gladden Fields and Celebrant. A lot of detail is is
> > given in Gladder Fields on fighting technique. The Dunedain fought
> > behind a shield wall with men firing steel numenerion bows. The bows
> > were they droped and sword drawn.

Slightly different troop types for various nations, I think, would work
best. (Rohan HC, Dwarven HI, Dunadan heavy anything, Elven archers.)

Ors(better HI) as well as
Orcs (better LI?)

Tony Z

#5

Most elves are sylvan, with Sinda and Noldo lords.
Sylvan get 15 Sinda
get 20 and Noldo get 25.

did I once point out that true noldor glow in the dark
? Anyone want to justify having a high stealth when
you always glow like a kiddies night-light.

Another thing to go with these concepts is larger
starting resource
levels. Give the evils more money. Give the good
large levels of
brozne and steel to represent starting armories.

I think that is a very good idea (adding extra bronze
and steel to the free). But I suggest looking at 2950
G29 first to gain some understanding of what would
happen. This game added extra resources to nations.

thanks
din

···

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#6

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

Lots of good points here - thoughts?

I'd like to stir another fish into the pot, so to speak: Some nations,
because of the way they are set up, cannot take advantage of their
SNA's, or are otherwise placed at a disadvantage, particularly where
characters are concerned. For example:

* Several nations (Woodmen, Eothraim, Arthedain, Northern Gondor,
Dwarves, Dog Lord, Cloud Lord, Ice King, Fire King, Long Rider, and all
5 Neutrals) have no competent Emissaries, while others (ex. Noldo, Witch
King) have two or more. Eothraim and Dwarves each start with only 2
characters with Emis at 10 rank each; the Cloud Lord, Blind Sorcerer,
Ice King, Fire King, Dunlendings, and Rhudaur each have only one, and
the Easterlings start with none!
   Some nations may have several characters with Emissary but it's
useless because the rank is weak and secondary to another rank - Ji
Indur is not effectively used planting camps, for example, and would
have to spend 5+ turns just getting to 30. While some of these have no
particular problem as a result, others are weaker nations who *need* to
place camps - and quickly - to survive, let alone compete.

* A number of nations (Northmen, Arthedain, Quiet Avenger, Dunlendings)
are allowed to start characters of a certain class at 40, yet do not
have a character of that rank to recruit with. To use the ability, they
have to either NamChar - for 10000 gold instead of 5000 - and then train
the new guy up to 40, or train a lesser rank (some as low as 10) up to
40; either way wasting both time and money. Meanwhile, most other
nations (Eothraim, Cardolan, Northern Gondor, Southern Gondor, Witch
King, Cloud Lord, Ice King, Long Rider, Dark Lieutenants, Rhudaur,
Easterlings) who can start at 40 do not have this impediment,
essentially making some nations more able to use this SNA than others.
It would stand to reason that if your nation *can* start a character at
40, it would have done so somewhere along the line.

So, here's your suggestions:

1) Have every nation start with at least one competent Emissary,
especially those for whom early camp planting is essential (the Noldo
don't need any more pop centers early on; the Woodmen do).
2) If a nation is supposed to be able to recruit characters at 40, make
sure they have at least one 40 rank in that class.

Best of all, no major changes in programming are required...

-ED \1/

#7

I had addressed these problems in a completely different thread last
month. A huge advantage the DS have over the FP is characters starting
in there capitals. The one weakest (in terms of numbers of characters)
is the Dark Lieut. He has 4 characters. The two non mordor nations
have 3. The best the FP has is SG with 4. How many good nations start
with only 1 character in capital on turn 1. Answer 5, Eothraim, Sinda,
Noldo, NG,and Cardolan. 2 others have 2, Dwarves and Northmen. This
is a huge advantage for the DS. Also most DS's are confined to at most
3 armies.Only WK and QA have 4. The Woodmen and Noldo have 3 the rest
of the good have at least 4 and some 6. The initial character
placement is huge in getting a game started. A simple solution would
be to have all non starting army co's be in the capital. At least the
good would get a few new starting characters out of the gate. Most of
the initial placements were from MERP products. The problem as to why
the badies have an advantage was that most of the badies resided in
the few fortresses that they have.

Another solution would be to add a 9th starting character. In every
case it would be a capital person.
Also, from MERP, there is cleary a way to accomdate the the minimum
SNA character requirement.
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Edward A. Dimmick" <dukefenton@e...> wrote:

···

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
>
> Lots of good points here - thoughts?
>
I'd like to stir another fish into the pot, so to speak: Some nations,
because of the way they are set up, cannot take advantage of their
SNA's, or are otherwise placed at a disadvantage, particularly where
characters are concerned. For example:

* Several nations (Woodmen, Eothraim, Arthedain, Northern Gondor,
Dwarves, Dog Lord, Cloud Lord, Ice King, Fire King, Long Rider, and all
5 Neutrals) have no competent Emissaries, while others (ex. Noldo, Witch
King) have two or more. Eothraim and Dwarves each start with only 2
characters with Emis at 10 rank each; the Cloud Lord, Blind Sorcerer,
Ice King, Fire King, Dunlendings, and Rhudaur each have only one, and
the Easterlings start with none!
   Some nations may have several characters with Emissary but it's
useless because the rank is weak and secondary to another rank - Ji
Indur is not effectively used planting camps, for example, and would
have to spend 5+ turns just getting to 30. While some of these have no
particular problem as a result, others are weaker nations who *need* to
place camps - and quickly - to survive, let alone compete.

* A number of nations (Northmen, Arthedain, Quiet Avenger, Dunlendings)
are allowed to start characters of a certain class at 40, yet do not
have a character of that rank to recruit with. To use the ability, they
have to either NamChar - for 10000 gold instead of 5000 - and then train
the new guy up to 40, or train a lesser rank (some as low as 10) up to
40; either way wasting both time and money. Meanwhile, most other
nations (Eothraim, Cardolan, Northern Gondor, Southern Gondor, Witch
King, Cloud Lord, Ice King, Long Rider, Dark Lieutenants, Rhudaur,
Easterlings) who can start at 40 do not have this impediment,
essentially making some nations more able to use this SNA than others.
It would stand to reason that if your nation *can* start a character at
40, it would have done so somewhere along the line.

So, here's your suggestions:

1) Have every nation start with at least one competent Emissary,
especially those for whom early camp planting is essential (the Noldo
don't need any more pop centers early on; the Woodmen do).
2) If a nation is supposed to be able to recruit characters at 40, make
sure they have at least one 40 rank in that class.

Best of all, no major changes in programming are required...

-ED \1/

#8

Not a big fan of making the Powerful positions better - Noldo, CL, Sindar -
ughhhh games would never get filled.

Clint

···

As for the gentlemen who opposed every elf having stealth. I have no
problem with every Cloud Lord recruit coming with stealth. Put limits.
Most elves are sylvan, with Sinda and Noldo lords. Sylvan get 15 Sinda
get 20 and Noldo get 25. All cloud lord characters get 10 stealth. May
a bonus to a 20. I named a cloud lord agent 40 ag with 35 stealth.
That stupidly high. Lower levels are acceptable. As for other special
types what about giving the evils a chance to name a demon,vampire or
were wolf. Several start in play on the evil side. Why not make
packages of bonus abitlites to go with special types named.

#9

This could be hand-moded like you said - thoughts?

Clint

···

* A number of nations (Northmen, Arthedain, Quiet Avenger, Dunlendings)
are allowed to start characters of a certain class at 40, yet do not
have a character of that rank to recruit with. To use the ability, they
have to either NamChar - for 10000 gold instead of 5000 - and then train
the new guy up to 40, or train a lesser rank (some as low as 10) up to
40; either way wasting both time and money. Meanwhile, most other
nations (Eothraim, Cardolan, Northern Gondor, Southern Gondor, Witch
King, Cloud Lord, Ice King, Long Rider, Dark Lieutenants, Rhudaur,
Easterlings) who can start at 40 do not have this impediment,
essentially making some nations more able to use this SNA than others.
It would stand to reason that if your nation *can* start a character at
40, it would have done so somewhere along the line.

So, here's your suggestions:

1) Have every nation start with at least one competent Emissary,
especially those for whom early camp planting is essential (the Noldo
don't need any more pop centers early on; the Woodmen do).
2) If a nation is supposed to be able to recruit characters at 40, make
sure they have at least one 40 rank in that class.

Best of all, no major changes in programming are required...

-ED \1/

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
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#10

Pick the sorry nations that consistently rank poorly, with an idea
towards giving players of these nations more interesting options.
I actually think giving the QA a starting 40 emmy would make the
position too powerful. A couple of starting free 30 agents (with some
stealth!) and a couple of agent toys could make for a more competitive
shadow war in 1650, much like 2950; give a small agent toy and a 30
agent with stealth to the woodies, maybe boost one of the silvan
starters agent skill and give a 40 emmy to the NM in 1650. IMO the
2950 starting set is OK as is; I'd give NG more population to make
taking the Ithil pass even mathematically possible.

cheers,

Marc

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@M...> wrote:

This could be hand-moded like you said - thoughts?

Clint
> * A number of nations (Northmen, Arthedain, Quiet Avenger,

Dunlendings)

> are allowed to start characters of a certain class at 40, yet do

not

> have a character of that rank to recruit with. To use the

ability, they

> have to either NamChar - for 10000 gold instead of 5000 - and then

train

> the new guy up to 40, or train a lesser rank (some as low as 10)

up to

> 40; either way wasting both time and money. Meanwhile, most other
> nations (Eothraim, Cardolan, Northern Gondor, Southern Gondor,

Witch

> King, Cloud Lord, Ice King, Long Rider, Dark Lieutenants, Rhudaur,
> Easterlings) who can start at 40 do not have this impediment,
> essentially making some nations more able to use this SNA than

others.

> It would stand to reason that if your nation *can* start a

character at

> 40, it would have done so somewhere along the line.
>
> So, here's your suggestions:
>
> 1) Have every nation start with at least one competent Emissary,
> especially those for whom early camp planting is essential (the

Noldo

> don't need any more pop centers early on; the Woodmen do).
> 2) If a nation is supposed to be able to recruit characters at 40,

make

> sure they have at least one 40 rank in that class.
>
> Best of all, no major changes in programming are required...
>
> -ED \1/
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

···

>
>