Here's a new thread for discussion.
There are some SNA's that I think are incorrectly costed.
(Harlequin, do you have the power/authority to make
changes like that?)
My rule of thumb for pricing SNA's is twofold.
For an SNA that I favor, what would I pay for it.
And for SNA's that I don't care for, what is the
lowest price I would be willing to have it cost?
The cases below are all from this latter consideration.
1. I would almost never take the SNA's for being
able to learn Fearful Hearts or Fanaticism, but they
would have to be at 1000 instead of 3000 for me to
even consider them.
Just to be clear here, the effect of the Fearful Hearts
is to reduce the enemy offensive strength by 2.5% - 5%
for the current turn. If I have 1000 HC, say my offense
is perhaps 8000, so that is reduced an average of 320.
Compare that to casting an average (same difficultly
as Fearful Hearts) defensive spell such as Blessings,
which takes off 1250 from the enemy strength! Admittedly
the Blessings spell is a one-shot; it helps in the
first round of combatonly. The FF spell reduces
the enemy strength for all rounds of combat and
possibly even if they are victorious it might reduce
their effectiveness if they continue on to assault
your population center in the same turn. Still,
you can have the Blessing spell without paying 3000
for an SNA.
The Fanaticism spell increases your army offense
by 1.25% to to almost 4%. Going back to my 1000 HC
with an offense of about 8000, my casting of Fanaticism
will increase my offense by an average of 240.
Compare that with an average offensive spell such
as Fire Bolts that causes 1000 points of additional
damage. Admittedly this is in the first round only,
compared with the effects of Fanaticism which lasts
the entire battle and probably the popcenter assault
if there is one.
As armies get larger, the value of both these
lost list spells becomes greater. With really
huge armies they can outpace the regular spells.
(Though remember that a mage can eventually learn
a hard spell for 1500-1750 points of defense or
1500-1750 points of offense.) One advantage
of the Fearful Hearts is that in something like
a Battle of Five Armies, where there are several
enemy armies facing you and several of your allies,
all enemy armies are reduced in morale and therefore
offense.
I think that both these spells were designed for the
1650 scenario, where economies and therefore armies
were larger, at least for the first dozen turns.
Even in the 1650 scenarios I have never
cast either of them when playing nations that could.
I am probably overdoing it here. A really fair
costing for these spells seems to me about 1500,
but since the game seems to use multiples of thousand,
I'd be willing to go overboard, just to see these
spells get over-used for a change.
1000 can learn lost "fearful hearts" spell
1000 can learn lost "fanaticism" spell
2. Teleport is also overpriced, by 100%. Like
a lottery ticket, what you are buying isn't
a return on your investment but the pleasure
of anticipating all you can do with it. It is
hardly in the league of other 6000-pt SNA's like
+20% buy/sell or naming 40-rank emissaries or agents.
I mean, how can this spell cost more than Conjure Mounts???
You can almost get the same result with a mage that
knows Path Mastery and Capital Return. This spell
should cost 3000. I certainly wouldn't care, if
at 3000, if all nations took considered it a bargain
and took it. I mean, great! You can beat me to any
artifact we both know about at the same time that
isn't within 12 of my capital, or 14 if my mage knows
Long Stride, or one of my allies' capitals.
3000 can learn lost "teleport" spell
3. Build ships at 1/2 timber cost, navy warship
strength at 4 and at 5. These are "sucker" bets,
as my friend Ernest Hakey explained to me, though
he used kinder words. Remember that for 1000 points
you can get 4 ships. So would you rather be able
to build ships for 1/2 timber, or start with 8 extra
ships to begin with? Just to build those 8 ships
later, even at half-timber, requires 6000 timber.
Warships at strength-5 costs 3000; would you rather
have that, or 12 extra warships to start with.
That's an offense of 36; you'd have to start with
18 warships for your 5-strength SNA to give you
an extra offense of 36, and the 12 warships give you
an extra constitution of 3 points each -- 36 defense
to boot. So even with 18 warships, the 5-strength SNA
doesn't begin to compare to having 12 extra warships.
You can even start with 10 extra warships and 2 more
transports, or some other mix.
Only the Elvish ability to create ships for 1/3 timber
barely makes sense. Though I might rather start with
8 more ships that could make a difference early on,
than be able to build more ships later.
While I'm in this vicinity, I'll mention that
the Open Seas SNA is maybe a little overpriced
at 3000 but it does allow artifact retrieval
from open waters and more importantly it lets
armada's cut across open waters to get to their
target more quickly and without being blockaded.
So I will leave that one alone.
Okay, what are fairer costs here? Here are my suggested
prices:
1000 Build ships for 1/2 timber
1000 Build ships for 1/3 timber (Elves only)
1000 Navy warship strength at 4
2000 Navy warship strength at 5
4. Build fortifications at 1/2 timber. Another
sucker shot. I've seen many players take it, including
myself -- but they don't seem to get around to building
many fortifications, beyond a tower or two and that's
just a minor timber savings. Just how many fortifications
do you have to build in order for this to be worth
4000? I've gotten this for free as a Kingdom nation
and still rarely used it. FA is just to fast-paced
for fortifications. Also, fortifying too much is
increases your maintenance costs and occupies a commander,
and is dangerous as your popcenter can just get emmied
from you. The only value I could see for this offhand
would be if I were starting in a timber-rich area and
put no fortifications on my capital. I would plan
to quickly build to a castle or something.
Perhaps it is just that no one has shown me how
to really parlay this SNA into valuable results.
I'd be interested in hearing success stories
My price:
2000 Build fortifications at 1/2 timber cost
Okay, I'm about done. Let the flames begin! <g>
Jeremy Richman
you could instead send