Choices

mepbmlist
#1

Couldn't agree more about the Woodmen and the Dragon-Lord. Bigger starting
armies and more safter pop centers (at least one more MT in Mordor) are
required to make the dragon-lord worth playing.

Brendan

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard John Devereux [mailto:devereux@lineone.net]
Sent: 21 March 2001 20:54
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Choices

<< > Would it be
> fairer to eliminate player choice, though this would not be popular

with

> certain players, in non-grudge games and assign nations randomly to

those

who
> apply to play?

Players like choices I am afraid. With the bigger player base it's quite
interesting that there are definite flavours of play out there that

people

like so some of the nations not particuarly liked by the Harl base is

quite

enjoyed by the DGE pBase. Still the Woodmen and NM are hard to fill.

Clint
  >>
If they want choices they can play the Fourth Age game. I am playing the
Northmen nation for the second time in 2950. Northmen was my third choice
nation in this game and will not appear anywhere on my list of choices in

the

future. Here's why.
1. Closest FP nation to DS on the eastern side of the map thus first to be
attacked by Dk.Lts, DogLord and LongRider armies, not to mention Khand
Easterlings who are a shoo-in to join the DS, plus weakening Northmen with
agent attacks encourages Rhun Easterlings, whose capital is adjacent to
Northmen capital, to ally with DS also.
2. Highest starting character challenge rank is 42, lowest in the entire
game including neutrals.
3. No starting character with stealth.
4. No second major town for backup capital.
5. No artifact.
6. All five starting PCs in "cold" climate in winter.
Any one or two of the above could be called a nuisance, but the

combination

of all six is a disaster.
In short, you spend the entire game, so long as you survive,

metaphorically

trying to pull yourself out of the quicksand.
Where is the fun in that?
(Shucks, I should have gone to bed hours ago.)
Ed

RD: Bear with me; I will come to Northmen shortly, but first, concerning
Woodies: in 'The Hobbit' Tolkien wrote (describing the Battle of Five
Armies): 'Beorn... tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and
feathers. He fell upon their rear, and broke like a clap of thunder through
the ring... nothing could withstand him, and no weapon seemed to bite upon
him. He scattered the bodyguard, and and pulled down Bolg himself and
crushed him.'

So why, in the ME game, does GSI make Beorn such a weedy character compared
with Bolg? Beorn should obviously be a mighty warrior, with a far higher
challenge rank than Bolg. Beorn could change shape into a bear, and did so
for the battle. He also (earlier) conjured up both food and mounts for
Thorin and company. This makes him a mage as well as a warrior.

To reflect this in the game, the following changes should be made:
1) Beorn's ranks should be increased to C50 M50; indeed, he should have
agent skill and stealth as well.
2) Woodie mages should have access to conjuring (mounts and food) in
addition to their other SAs.
3) Beorn should have a 1000 combat artifact (at least!).

That would make Woodies worth playing. I have played Nor in 1650 but not in
2950, and it's VERY hard. You can make not a single mistake and still go
down against overwhelming enemy numbers. I can't justify it by a quote from
Tolkien, but in the interests of game balance, Nor should be beefed up
somewhat to make the nation more interesting with more chance of survival.

Would such changes unbalance the game? I don't think so. The stats I have
seen indicate that the DS win more often than the FP. I know there has been
a lot of argument as to whether these stats are valid are not after such
things as the tweaks to agent abilities, but IF they are valid, beefing up
Woodies and Nor as I suggest would actually improve balance. If not, then
amongst the DS, Dragon lord could do with a bit of help!

Regards,

Richard.

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#2

Would other nations then lose some bits to compensate as I suggested above.
Normally the WK and the Dragon Lord are considered to be nations that "only
a matter of time" before they fall so this would have a big impact on the
game. I guess the way to go with this is variant games to play test them
all with sublte changs brought in over time? Eg NM with a 40EM, WK with a
village, then a town etc. I could then advertise that that in the game
set-up so that everyone would be informed before hand so that there would be
random element brought in.

Eg
Game 70 [1650] variant - special ability of one of the following added
(Randomly or chosen?) to the game. (I would do this with every other game
so that players still have the choice to play normal games is they want, and
then get the team or player to report back as a progressive playtest with a
game of 1650 starting up 2 a month this would bring in some useful
information to do a Test game reasonably quickly).

NM40Em (instead of Character XX), Wo 30Ag (instead of char XX), WK Vill@xxyy
DragLord Vill@xxyy [or upgraded?] (other thoughts),

WK is a nation that is often played so I would not want to adapt that one
too much. My aim here would be to make some of the less well chosen nations
more interesting to play. NM, Wo, DrL all come under that. I am not
attempting to change the balance of the game too much.

Clint

···

Couldn't agree more about the Woodmen and the Dragon-Lord. Bigger starting
armies and more safter pop centers (at least one more MT in Mordor) are
required to make the dragon-lord worth playing.

#3

--- Middle Earth PBM Games <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
wrote: > Would other nations then lose some bits to

compensate as I suggested above.

A nation LOSE bits ... ICK ... I would always like to
increase someone, rather than penalise someone else.

Normally the WK and the Dragon Lord are considered
to be nations that "only
a matter of time" before they fall so this would
have a big impact on the
game.

While north gondor remains in the game a long time,
its no cup of tea to play. I always feel sorry for the
player.

I guess the way to go with this is variant
games to play test them
all with sublte changs brought in over time?

Hard to say. I've mentioned before that I think
tactics have a bigger effect on a nation surviving
that doing minor changes to their pop centres.

And has the question been changed ? Before I thought
it was 'what changes can be made to get more people to
play certain nation', and its now 'what changes can be
made to help certain nations survive longer'.

A small difference, but ....

Eg NM

with a 40EM, WK with a
village, then a town etc. I could then advertise
that that in the game
set-up so that everyone would be informed before
hand so that there would be
random element brought in.

Each game already has a random element in it. Yeah
sure your extra +10 mage skill on an agent might not
be useful, but its there. Maybe have more than one
character get a bonus ? Even getting a extra pop
centre as a initial random ability (instead of a
character skill) might be worth it - especially if the
random pop centre isn't a camp, and its not on anyone
map :slight_smile:

Eg
Game 70 [1650] variant - special ability of one of
the following added
(Randomly or chosen?)

I would prefer random, as newbies might not know what
to pick.

to the game. (I would do this

with every other game
so that players still have the choice to play normal
games is they want, and
then get the team or player to report back as a
progressive playtest with a
game of 1650 starting up 2 a month this would bring
in some useful
information to do a Test game reasonably quickly).

NM40Em (instead of Character XX), Wo 30Ag (instead
of char XX), WK Vill@xxyy
DragLord Vill@xxyy [or upgraded?] (other thoughts),

I would suggest changes like the WoTR, ie LOTS of
them, and keep the originals untouched. If lots of
people put their name down for the variants, then
these get played more often - of course its unknown if
the variants are more or less balanced than the
originals ....

WK is a nation that is often played so I would not
want to adapt that one
too much. My aim here would be to make some of the
less well chosen nations
more interesting to play. NM, Wo, DrL all come under
that.

I must have been lucky in my 2950 games with the
northmen. When I play free this bastard started
founding his camps in mordor before anywhere else.
When the DS emissaries came online, they were forced
to go ourside mordor. He told the rhun 'are you with
us, or not'. When the rhun said 'let me think about
it', he was told 'wrong answer'. Splat when the rhun
(since the northmen was ready to attack the rhun).

And when I played DS, the northmen purchased HC and
bashed the 9 forms of hell out of us.

based on my experience, I would give him nothing. But
if others think he needs stuff, then so be it.

As for the dragon lord ... didn't we just finish a
thread where we talked about him defeating the sindar
on t2-3 in a 2950 game. But I would think about
helping the dragon lord since it is a rare game when
the DS start with reveal hidden.

When I play DS, its 'oh long rider, front and centre
with your cav to the dragon lord capital'

···

I am not
attempting to change the balance of the game too
much.

Clint

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#4

A nation LOSE bits ... ICK ... I would always like to
increase someone, rather than penalise someone else.

Yes but then there is a monty haul aspect to the game. If we assume (and it
is - start with least changes then work our way up) that the 1650 game is
even then improving one nation would impact on that hence we need to remove
to keep things even.

While north gondor remains in the game a long time,
its no cup of tea to play. I always feel sorry for the
player.

No mention was made of the NG - not anything I want to change there.

> I guess the way to go with this is variant
> games to play test them
> all with sublte changs brought in over time?

And has the question been changed ? Before I thought
it was 'what changes can be made to get more people to
play certain nation', and its now 'what changes can be
made to help certain nations survive longer'.

Um not sure how it reads that way. Still the first question.

Each game already has a random element in it. Yeah
sure your extra +10 mage skill on an agent might not
be useful, but its there. Maybe have more than one
character get a bonus ? Even getting a extra pop
centre as a initial random ability (instead of a
character skill) might be worth it - especially if the
random pop centre isn't a camp, and its not on anyone
map :slight_smile:

No mention of that either. The random element was as to the specific
application of the bits (NM, Wo, DrL, WK) that I put forward not to the
character set-up. You are correct though it could be just specifically
"this game xx starts with the Woodies having an Agent 30 instead of xxx.)

>
> Eg
> Game 70 [1650] variant - special ability of one of
> the following added
> (Randomly or chosen?)

I would prefer random, as newbies might not know what
to pick.

I generally advise new players not all follow it but there you go. new
players would not see the FS anyway.

I would suggest changes like the WoTR, ie LOTS of
them, and keep the originals untouched. If lots of
people put their name down for the variants, then
these get played more often - of course its unknown if
the variants are more or less balanced than the
originals ....

Um okay. I don't know how you could judge the impact then. I can imagine
convincing GSI to change some nations by upgrading them a little but major
changes ... ouch.

I must have been lucky in my 2950 games with the

I would prefer to stick to the more popular format of 1650 for now (that's
what I was talking about) and then we can look at the 2950 - but I am happy
to discuss that as well but perfer to keep the focus on 1650 improvements.

Clint

#5

Would other nations then lose some bits to compensate as I suggested

above.

Normally the WK and the Dragon Lord are considered to be nations that

"only

a matter of time" before they fall so this would have a big impact on the
game. I guess the way to go with this is variant games to play test them
all with sublte changs brought in over time? Eg NM with a 40EM, WK with a
village, then a town etc. I could then advertise that that in the game
set-up so that everyone would be informed before hand so that there would

be

random element brought in.

Eg
Game 70 [1650] variant - special ability of one of the following added
(Randomly or chosen?) to the game. (I would do this with every other game
so that players still have the choice to play normal games is they want,

and

then get the team or player to report back as a progressive playtest with

a

game of 1650 starting up 2 a month this would bring in some useful
information to do a Test game reasonably quickly).

NM40Em (instead of Character XX), Wo 30Ag (instead of char XX), WK

Vill@xxyy

DragLord Vill@xxyy [or upgraded?] (other thoughts),

WK is a nation that is often played so I would not want to adapt that one
too much. My aim here would be to make some of the less well chosen

nations

more interesting to play. NM, Wo, DrL all come under that. I am not
attempting to change the balance of the game too much.

Clint

RD: I agree Nor & Woo need characters beefing up. DrL doesn't need
characters improving, he needs extra tax base. If you are going to add A10
to a Woo and E10 to Nor, give DrL a village. If you're going to give Woo
+A20 and Nor +E20, give Drl a MT. Fair?

The only other nation which badly needs a makeover is Rhudaur - for obvious
reasons, the least favourite neutral. I suggest making one of the weedy
coms up to C50 in addition to the existing C40.

Richard.

> Couldn't agree more about the Woodmen and the Dragon-Lord. Bigger

starting

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Choices

> armies and more safter pop centers (at least one more MT in Mordor) are
> required to make the dragon-lord worth playing.

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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#6

I would prefer to stick to the more popular format
of 1650 for now (that's
what I was talking about) and then we can look at
the 2950 - but I am happy
to discuss that as well but perfer to keep the focus
on 1650 improvements.

you lucky bastards. I know bugger all about normal
1650 games (too many 'lets do what the leader says in
1650 grudge games'). And going between 2950 and 1650
will only confuse me.

So how about we stick to 1650 games. When that is
done, we can talk 2950.

Thus I get to stop posting so many emails.

thanks
din

···

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