Continuing Discussion

Regarding Player Ranking Systems.

I did a search on the web site and put in Player Ranking System, and
found almost 200 messages, starting on Sunday August 13, 2000 by
Laurence Tilley with his (original?) idea to compile scores based on
completing games.

I'm sure that there were other messages posted in regards to the
ideas surrounding PRS's of some form or another that did NOT find it's
way onto my search results.

What I have found (and yes, this is from going in and reading a number
of the messages...gotta love high speed access....) is that there IS
a definite interest in a PRS of some sort.

I was able to log 33 people who posted messages regarding a PRS. The
vast majority were supportive. Player input, via voting, was the
most popular style, while a Normalized VP score, as proposed by Marc P
and myself, was often cited by Clint also. (I think 33 is indicative
of MANY more than that interested spectators, as may of the 300 or
so members of this group usually are, no?)

I posted recently asking for ideas on how to merge the various data
"columns" into one single scale. None were forthcoming......

Laurence claimed in August that, in discussions with Clint regarding
the development of a PRS, Stage 1, the compilation of a Player Roster
was "in hand", and Stage 2 - the seeking of ideas/debate was coming.

I would presume that our discussions in October were Stage 2...?
Any results? Future aims? Anything happening?

Well, I'm gonna go out here and throw yet again ONE MORE proposition
out there...

A player roster with a number of columns containing various data items
that is interactive on the web site (ie, viewers can select their
preferred column to sort the players by...).

Games Started
Games Completed
Games Completed on Winning Team
Rating

You could always add Number of Times Individual Winner, or Number
of Times MVP, etc.... if it's desired.

The RATING? Oh yes. It incorporates all three preferred systems into
one simple scale. Exactly what the values for each categorie are can
easily be played with, but taking those that have already been put
forward, I'm combined them as such:

+ Games Completed - Winning Team=2, Losing Team=1
+ End Game Poll Results - ie MVP=1, (other categories?)
+ Number of Standard Deviations Away from Normal VP for Nation

3 possible numbers, all of a similar scale. Players would have their
AVERAGE "Rating" reported. For example:

Your team wins = 2
Your VP's for SG were 967, (Mean=900, SD=75) = 0.89 (ie 67/75)
You're Voted MVP = 1

Total = 3.89

Say, a Score of 5 would represent:
2 for a win
+ 1 for MVP
+ 2 for your VP score being 2 SD's from mean (quite good! by
definition, 2 thirds of results would be within within +/- 1 SD of
the mean. Getting a value of 2 or more is excellent)

Sort of like american Grade Point Averages (college marks with 4 being
the highest...), the numbers would be low (not 1000....) but
meaningful.

[LOTS OF WORK FOR THE COMPANY?]

Not really. I have offered to calculate the Means and SD's for each
nation a couple times. I'd even keep that information updated with
every completed game. The others are really quite simple.

[Hey! You can have a NEGATIVE Rating!]

Yes you can, if your VP is Below the Mean. If that is unacceptable,
simply at time of publication, add the negative value of the lowest
rated player to EVERYONES score, such that the lowest rated player is
at zero. Everyone else would still be slotted in their approprate
rank. (or lowest is at 1, whatever...:wink:

[Hey! Nobody will vote after the game! They're all just going away!]

Make it worth a free turn, or hey, even 2 free turns!
Say, #'s 11 and 21 in your next game! :wink:

The only way to incorporate it, realistically, is to make it an opt-out
system, or compulsary. If the complete listing isn't desired, every
players' front sheet can have THEIR ranking on it, while the weekly
company FS publication can incorporate a Top 10 listing, such that the
"winners" are recognized, while, everyone knows their OWN rank but
won't be embarassed publically if THEY are the "zero".

There you go. Concrete ideas, and the FOURTH offer to do much of it
for free for you. I think I'll leave you in peace now, unless called
upon to "put up". Thanks and best regards to all who've made it all
the way through this!

Brad Brunet

···

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I posted recently asking for ideas on how to merge the various data
"columns" into one single scale. None were forthcoming......

I didn't respond on that because I didn't like it. The idea of giving the raw data in a player roster was suggested as a constructive _alternative_ to merging data into a single scale. The criteria you use or reject for a single rating figure will always be controversial and receive varying levels of acceptance. The raw data allows everyone to make their own judgements.

Laurence claimed in August that, in discussions with Clint regarding
the development of a PRS, Stage 1, the compilation of a Player Roster
was "in hand", and Stage 2 - the seeking of ideas/debate was coming.

I would presume that our discussions in October were Stage 2...?
Any results? Future aims? Anything happening?

No. You've misundersood. Stage one progressing to stage two depended on a return of the initial survey saying "Would you be interested in some form of PRS"? The returns were negligible. The reasons were partly:
1) Harlequin not promoting it strongly enough
2) We 33ish enthusiasts not promoting it strongly enough
3) Mentioning it only as a footnote in Bree, then as a proper form a whole issue later
It needed to be promoted with proactive enthusiasm and on a separate flyer. However having said that, the returns for the survey were _so_ low, that nobody can really be blamed for throwing up their hands and saying "oh well, I tried".

Hence doing it by a large consultation process, stage 1 stage 2 etc., fizzled out.

Well, I'm gonna go out here and throw yet again ONE MORE proposition
out there...
A player roster with a number of columns containing various data items
that is interactive on the web site (ie, viewers can select their
preferred column to sort the players by...).
Games Started
Games Completed
Games Completed on Winning Team
Rating

OH YES! I like that very much. Not everyone will be familiar with interactive tables. c.f. sites like shopsmart.com where you can search for a product, then sort the table by clicking on the headers to sort by "price" or "delivery time" etc. Yes, a gold star to you for this suggestion, makes the roster table even more attractive in my eyes.

You could always add Number of Times Individual Winner, or Number
of Times MVP, etc.... if it's desired.

The RATING? Oh yes. It incorporates all three preferred systems into
one simple scale. Exactly what the values for each categorie are can
easily be played with, but taking those that have already been put
forward, I'm combined them as such:

+ Games Completed - Winning Team=2, Losing Team=1
+ End Game Poll Results - ie MVP=1, (other categories?)
+ Number of Standard Deviations Away from Normal VP for Nation

I like this less. But the whole point of a table is that you can have as many columns as you like. It's only a matter of writing a speadsheet with formulae to automatically process the data columns to make rating columns. Better all three than a single one rating system, which would thus assume an undesirable IMO "official" quality. Give us all three ratings, and we can happily make our own minds up about which one matters.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can get Clint to approve, you should go ahead and set this up. Then we need to start selling the system to our fellow players.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 07:08 AM 04-11-01, Player wrote:

Thanks I'll give it some thought and then come up with something later this
week. I personally would like to have something more indepth but that would
take some more player support - some sort of voting scheme at the end of the
game for VPs.

Laurence claimed in August that, in discussions with Clint regarding
the development of a PRS, Stage 1, the compilation of a Player Roster
was "in hand", and Stage 2 - the seeking of ideas/debate was coming.

Yes this was the one we had 10 replies to after 2 quite in depth attempts to
get going.

A player roster with a number of columns containing various data items
that is interactive on the web site (ie, viewers can select their
preferred column to sort the players by...).

Thanks for yours, and others, hard work on this so far - you never know we
might actually get something from it.

Clint

As far as I'm concerned, if you can get Clint to approve, you should go
ahead and set this up. Then we need to start selling the system to our
fellow players.

I am happy with this - show me and then I can give some suggestions that I
have had over time from players.

Clint