Hey Everyone,
I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with cursing NPCs,
balrogs, dragons, Gandalf, etc? In theory, they have 100 health just
like everyone else, right?
Woody
It doesn't work Woody. You get "Character was not permitted as a target" as a response.
Laurence G. Tilley
http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk
···
At 21:02 23/06/2002, you wrote:
I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with cursing NPCs,
balrogs, dragons, Gandalf, etc? In theory, they have 100 health just
like everyone else, right?
Dear Woody:
You would think so. But go look at a bunch of the old "Mouth of Saurons".
Also, the old GSI Message boards used to have a lot of this stuff.
Actually, the theory is that they have some form of resistance to such
spells. I.E., if you pc them and overcome the challenge rank, they die. BUT
you can drop more than 100 points of sickness, etc. on one and it doesn't
appear to kill them. My theory is that they also have supernaturally fast
healing... but no data to back that up.
Jeff
···
-----Original Message-----
From: mwoodsmall [mailto:mwoodsmall@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 3:02 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Cursing NPCsHey Everyone,
I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with cursing NPCs,
balrogs, dragons, Gandalf, etc? In theory, they have 100 health just
like everyone else, right?Woody
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@l...> wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with cursing NPCs,
>balrogs, dragons, Gandalf, etc? In theory, they have 100 health just
>like everyone else, right?It doesn't work Woody. You get "Character was not permitted as a
target"
as a response.
That's not the case for the Balrog. Well, it's not the case that you
get the 'Character was not permitted as a target' message. However,
it's not clear whether or not it does anything.
In game 22, the FP cursed the Balrog of Moria for 100 points. Elrond
then challenged and killed it the next turn. The curse orders gave
the usual success message, but the Balrog was reported as 'a health
and dark Maiar spirit' during the challenge message. Elrond then
killed the Balrog almost immediately, though it's not clear whether
this was because of a massive challenge advantage, a critical success,
or the Balrog being in a weakened state.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/message/10152 has the
challenge report reposted, along with some speculation about the
effects of the curses.
-Peter
···
At 21:02 23/06/2002, you wrote:
I've just tried the army strength calculator in Automagic and it shows that
an army's attack strength is roughly 1.5 times as much against another army
as it is against a pop centre.
This is not what it says in the rule book, which has an army's attack
strength the same against both.
Can anybody offer any suggestions.
David
> >I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with cursing NPCs,
> >balrogs, dragons, Gandalf, etc? In theory, they have 100 health just
> >like everyone else, right?
>
> It doesn't work Woody. You get "Character was not permitted as a
target"
> as a response.That's not the case for the Balrog. Well, it's not the case that you
get the 'Character was not permitted as a target' message. However,
it's not clear whether or not it does anything.In game 22, the FP cursed the Balrog of Moria for 100 points. Elrond
then challenged and killed it the next turn. The curse orders gave
the usual success message, but the Balrog was reported as 'a health
and dark Maiar spirit' during the challenge message. Elrond then
killed the Balrog almost immediately, though it's not clear whether
this was because of a massive challenge advantage, a critical success,
or the Balrog being in a weakened state.
Well, I'm most surprised that you did not get the "not permitted as a target message". However, he was clearly unaffected. The "healthy" part of the challenge report tells you that he has 100 health. The spell description for 506 does not specifically say that an NPC cannot be targeted, but it does say that it allows you to affect "another nation's character". You can practice the spell by cursing your own characters, (even the mage himself), no health loss is taken, but casting chance improves. Pehaps it's the same for Balrogs.
Laurence G. Tilley
Unfortunately, I have been unable to get a clear answer on how this really works.
However, I can tell you how I arrived at the formulas I used in Automagic.
The rulebook doesn't actually say that the army's attack strength is the same against
armies or PCs. It makes a reference in the army vs. PC combat example of "using the
figures above", but then it only gives the Army Troop Strength as 7467 (which happens
to be the same as the final result of the army vs. army combat example). However, in
paragraph A) of the army vs. PC section, (right above the example), it specifically
states; "Compute the Army Troop Strength and Army Troop Constitution. This is the same
as per 'Army versus Army' combat, EXCEPT THAT TACTICS ARE NOT CONSIDERED..." (emphasis
mine).
You'll note that in the previous army vs. army example, they arrived at the number
7467 by CONSIDERING TACTICS. Obviously this cannot be the exact same army makeup, so
when they say "using the figures above", they must have meant the end result figures,
and not the listed troop figures.
So, the question I had which I couldn't get the answer to was this:
When the rulebook says that "tactics are not considered", does it mean that you insert
100% into the tactics slot of the formula and still divide by 4, (Training, Weapons,
Terrain, Tactics), or do you omit the tactics figure entirely and divide by 3 (for the
remaining 3 variables)? I took the more conservative approach (and more literal
interpretation of the rules), and omitted tactics from the equation altogether for
army vs PC combat. This gives the other 3 variables more weight, and is virtually
certain to result in a smaller combat strength.
I can't guarantee that this is the correct method, but it IS the more conservative
one. I figured people would prefer this, at least until a definite answer is
forthcoming. I'm not counting on that, though, as the inner workings of the MePBM
program are a notoriously closely guarded secret! 
Also, as a side note, the next revision will have slots for Nation Terrain Modifier
and Nation Climate Modifier. These were abstracted into the formulas before, due to
the fact that Automagic orignated as a 4th Age ONLY tool. (4th Age doesn't use these,
and they are simply set at 100 for all nations.)
Mike Mulka
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Grey Squirrel [mailto:greysquirrel@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 1:07 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Automagic and Army Strength Calculations
I've just tried the army strength calculator in Automagic and it shows that
an army's attack strength is roughly 1.5 times as much against another army
as it is against a pop centre.
This is not what it says in the rule book, which has an army's attack
strength the same against both.
Can anybody offer any suggestions.
David
--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@l...> wrote:
Well, I'm most surprised that you did not get the "not permitted as a
target message". However, he was clearly unaffected. The "healthy"
part
of the challenge report tells you that he has 100 health. The spell
description for 506 does not specifically say that an NPC cannot be
targeted, but it does say that it allows you to affect "another
nation's
character". You can practice the spell by cursing your own characters,
(even the mage himself), no health loss is taken, but casting chance
improves. Pehaps it's the same for Balrogs.
I think that's the simplest and most likely explanation, but another
theory I've seen proposed before is that major NPCs have more than 100
health. Hypothetically, if the Balrog has 200 health, the 100 points
of curses would have left it at 100. Healing would then put it at at
least 114. If the code which writes the duel reports just looks at
health compared to 100 when deciding if the character is 'healthy' or
not it wouldn't indicate this.
The only evidence in favor of this is highly circumstancial - Elrond
killed the Balrog 'with a single spell' and took no damage, at a
challenge rank of 341 after the challenge. I'd have said previously
that while a challenge rank in the mid 300's would expect to defeat
the Balrog, I'd have expected a closer fight than we saw. If the
Balrog's challenge rank isn't that high but it normally has 200 or
more health, it'd have a relative advantage in normal challenges
similar to that created by a challenge rank advantage, which the
curses might have removed. Which would explain why the fight was so
one-sided.
This is of course all entirely speculative and most likely not true,
but it's an old theory I'd seen before we did these tests and which is
as consistent with the observed results as the Balrog simply being immune.
-Peter
Yahoogroups is giving odd problems, I'm on 4 of them and
have been getting my messages hours late for all of them.
But that should have nothing to do with my Game 17 pdf...
An ally had to ask for his, and was then sent it, apparently.
I was patient and understanding, and obviously must have sent
my "Please Sire, Send my Turn!" note after they've closed for
the day. Funny, didn't know there were any more interesting
"footy" games on today...
So it's now creeping in on 1 in the Morning Tuesday, and I still
don't have my Monday pdf. No notes to the players of this game
saying "We've decided only 1/2 of you get to play, the Free have
soo many advantages, we've eliminated some of their nations."
No messages to mepbmlist saying "Sorry for the delays, our
computers/server/email/etc.etc". No nothing, no turn.
Brad
109410
game 17 nation 24
I sent an email to you about this informing you of our situation (and the list). I asked that if there was no turn that you contact us the next day, as per the house rules. A polite request is generally appreciated. 
Thanks
Clint
···
Yahoogroups is giving odd problems, I'm on 4 of them and
have been getting my messages hours late for all of them.But that should have nothing to do with my Game 17 pdf...
An ally had to ask for his, and was then sent it, apparently.
I was patient and understanding, and obviously must have sent
my "Please Sire, Send my Turn!" note after they've closed for
the day. Funny, didn't know there were any more interesting
"footy" games on today...So it's now creeping in on 1 in the Morning Tuesday, and I still
don't have my Monday pdf. No notes to the players of this game
saying "We've decided only 1/2 of you get to play, the Free have
soo many advantages, we've eliminated some of their nations."No messages to mepbmlist saying "Sorry for the delays, our
computers/server/email/etc.etc". No nothing, no turn.Brad
109410
game 17 nation 24Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.comYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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