Defeatism in Middle Earth

mepbmlist
#1

In the Middle Earth Context it often happens that one side, or the other,
will gain a superiority in the mid-game. The opponet will then often drop
at some near point. From my observations, the process runs with the most
discouraged quiting first and the less discouraged quit soon thereafter.

I think you need to put the game into context. Rather than a battle for global domination, it is a hobby, and a not all too cheap one at that. Many don't really like paying $15 a month to be pounded relentlessly. Especially when there is another game forming where you have a decent chance of picking up a nation that is in much better condition.

If I'm on a communicative team, where I can see the benifits to the team of my sticking around and taking the pounding, I'm all for it. If I'm on a team with little communication, even less help, and owe the other players nothing.... thanks for nothing.

···

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

#2

some time have pased the cardiff f2f so i seams like a good time to quate
clinte " ther is a diregt link betving banckrupting a nation an geting dunk"

David (drunk at this moment so better not do orders this weakend) Clemmensen

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "corsairs game 101" <corsairs101@hotmail.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Defeatism in Middle Earth

>In the Middle Earth Context it often happens that one side, or the other,
>will gain a superiority in the mid-game. The opponet will then often

drop

>at some near point. From my observations, the process runs with the most
>discouraged quiting first and the less discouraged quit soon thereafter.

I think you need to put the game into context. Rather than a battle for
global domination, it is a hobby, and a not all too cheap one at that.

Many

don't really like paying $15 a month to be pounded relentlessly.

Especially

when there is another game forming where you have a decent chance of

picking

up a nation that is in much better condition.

If I'm on a communicative team, where I can see the benifits to the team

of

my sticking around and taking the pounding, I'm all for it. If I'm on a
team with little communication, even less help, and owe the other players
nothing.... thanks for nothing.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#3

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "corsairs game 101" <corsairs101@h...> wrote:

>In the Middle Earth Context it often happens that one side, or the

other,

>will gain a superiority in the mid-game. The opponet will then

often drop

>at some near point. From my observations, the process runs with

the most

>discouraged quiting first and the less discouraged quit soon

thereafter.

I think you need to put the game into context. Rather than a battle

for

global domination, it is a hobby, and a not all too cheap one at

that. Many

don't really like paying $15 a month to be pounded relentlessly.

Especially

when there is another game forming where you have a decent chance of

picking

up a nation that is in much better condition.

If I'm on a communicative team, where I can see the benifits to the

team of

my sticking around and taking the pounding, I'm all for it. If I'm

on a

team with little communication, even less help, and owe the other

players

nothing.... thanks for nothing.

As far as a team drop is concerned, I view conceding a hopeless
strategic position as a matter of simple courtesy. A reasonably
competent team can continue a game for 6 months to a year after the
outcome is no longer in doubt. What's the point? To force the other
side to spend 50-100$ each in a bug hunt?

I do think that there is a difference between being behind and having
definitely lost. Generally speaking, this is a tougher call for a
losing free team than a losing dark team. By the time the situation
is hopeless for the dark, the free are typically sacking big chunks of
Mordor and the end is clearly near. The free, by contrast, have three
major areas (the northwest, Mirkwood, and Gondorland.) Sorry for all
of the northmen/dwarf players out there, but the Sea of Rhun/Iron
Hills theatre rarely determines a game :slight_smile:

The most reliable guide I've seen for when the free have clearly lost
can be stated as follows:

I have seen free teams bounce back when they lose the Sea of Rhun, or
when they have lost parts of gondorland or mirkwood. I have never
seen a free team bounce back when mirkwood or gondorland is completely
conquered by the dark side. If the dragon lord can't see a light bulb
on his map, it's time to end it. If Dol Amroth, Linhir, Pelargir, and
Minas Tirith are DS bases, call it a day.

Individual drops are a different matter, and there are a million
reasons why they could happen. Conflict with other team members is
the top reason, followed closely by being part of a chaotic or badly
organized group. It is quite rare, at least in the games I've been
in. to have individuals quit because they think they're losing.

cheers,

Marc

#4

I have seen free teams bounce back when they lose the Sea of Rhun, or
when they have lost parts of gondorland or mirkwood. I have never
seen a free team bounce back when mirkwood or gondorland is completely
conquered by the dark side.

** Game 16 was one where I have personal experience of this occurring.

Individual drops are a different matter, and there are a million
reasons why they could happen. Conflict with other team members is
the top reason, followed closely by being part of a chaotic or badly
organized group. It is quite rare, at least in the games I've been
in. to have individuals quit because they think they're losing.

** It all depends on the player's individual style of playing. Some like to stick it out and wear the opposition out or try for a glorious win attempt. Others prefer to give it as soon as the flag is dropped for game start. Getting it right is hard though and generally takes an experienced player with an overall grasp of the team situation and the opposition's position to get that call right.

Clint

#5

I agree that in general, the FP have clearly lost when they are in this bad a position. However, in game 71, recently finished, the Free were down to the Noldor, Sindar & Dwarves (and the last two went out quite quickly as well) and continued playing. Why? The Noldor went on a One Ring hunt. They found it and got it half way across the map before dropping it. Yes,it did cost the DS, 14 of them at that point, a lot of money each turn but I can hardly say that the Noldor were playing on for that reason alone. I think that this is the *only* reason to continue playing in this sort of situation.

Richard

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: marc_pinsonneault
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 3:53 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Defeatism in Middle Earth

  --- In mepbmlist@y..., "corsairs game 101" <corsairs101@h...> wrote:
  > >In the Middle Earth Context it often happens that one side, or the
  other,
  > >will gain a superiority in the mid-game. The opponet will then
  often drop
  > >at some near point. From my observations, the process runs with
  the most
  > >discouraged quiting first and the less discouraged quit soon
  thereafter.
  >
  >
  > I think you need to put the game into context. Rather than a battle
  for
  > global domination, it is a hobby, and a not all too cheap one at
  that. Many
  > don't really like paying $15 a month to be pounded relentlessly.
  Especially
  > when there is another game forming where you have a decent chance of
  picking
  > up a nation that is in much better condition.
  >
  > If I'm on a communicative team, where I can see the benifits to the
  team of
  > my sticking around and taking the pounding, I'm all for it. If I'm
  on a
  > team with little communication, even less help, and owe the other
  players
  > nothing.... thanks for nothing.
  >

  As far as a team drop is concerned, I view conceding a hopeless
  strategic position as a matter of simple courtesy. A reasonably
  competent team can continue a game for 6 months to a year after the
  outcome is no longer in doubt. What's the point? To force the other
  side to spend 50-100$ each in a bug hunt?

  I do think that there is a difference between being behind and having
  definitely lost. Generally speaking, this is a tougher call for a
  losing free team than a losing dark team. By the time the situation
  is hopeless for the dark, the free are typically sacking big chunks of
  Mordor and the end is clearly near. The free, by contrast, have three
  major areas (the northwest, Mirkwood, and Gondorland.) Sorry for all
  of the northmen/dwarf players out there, but the Sea of Rhun/Iron
  Hills theatre rarely determines a game :slight_smile:

  The most reliable guide I've seen for when the free have clearly lost
  can be stated as follows:

  I have seen free teams bounce back when they lose the Sea of Rhun, or
  when they have lost parts of gondorland or mirkwood. I have never
  seen a free team bounce back when mirkwood or gondorland is completely
  conquered by the dark side. If the dragon lord can't see a light bulb
  on his map, it's time to end it. If Dol Amroth, Linhir, Pelargir, and
  Minas Tirith are DS bases, call it a day.

  Individual drops are a different matter, and there are a million
  reasons why they could happen. Conflict with other team members is
  the top reason, followed closely by being part of a chaotic or badly
  organized group. It is quite rare, at least in the games I've been
  in. to have individuals quit because they think they're losing.

  cheers,

  Marc

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

I've heard it said that once the One Ring is dropped, it cannot be picked up for another 12 turns. What do the wise folk here say, fact or myth? If it's true, the mechanism must serve the game companies very well.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 08:32 09/09/2002, Richard Farrer wrote:

I agree that in general, the FP have clearly lost when they are in this bad a position. However, in game 71, recently finished, the Free were down to the Noldor, Sindar & Dwarves (and the last two went out quite quickly as well) and continued playing. Why? The Noldor went on a One Ring hunt. They found it and got it half way across the map before dropping it. Yes,it did cost the DS, 14 of them at that point, a lot of money each turn but I can hardly say that the Noldor were playing on for that reason alone. I think that this is the *only* reason to continue playing in this sort of situation.

#7

Myth.

If the 1R drops, it goes randomly into one of seven hexes: The hex it was
dropped or one of the adjoining.

HOWEVER, unless you know it is there (i.e. with a Locate) your chance of
grabbing it is nearly nil.

Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence G. Tilley [mailto:laurence@lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 3:20 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Defeatism in Middle Earth

At 08:32 09/09/2002, Richard Farrer wrote:
>I agree that in general, the FP have clearly lost when they are in this
>bad a position. However, in game 71, recently finished, the Free were
>down to the Noldor, Sindar & Dwarves (and the last two went out quite
>quickly as well) and continued playing. Why? The Noldor went on a One
>Ring hunt. They found it and got it half way across the map before
>dropping it. Yes,it did cost the DS, 14 of them at that point, a lot of
>money each turn but I can hardly say that the Noldor were playing on for
>that reason alone. I think that this is the *only* reason to continue
>playing in this sort of situation.

I've heard it said that once the One Ring is dropped, it cannot be picked
up for another 12 turns. What do the wise folk here say, fact or
myth? If
it's true, the mechanism must serve the game companies very well.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#8

OK, to be more specific, I was told "it can't be _located_ for another 12 turns", could be read as meaning the Locate spells won't work on it for 12 turns.

How can you demonstrate that the chances of getting it again is "nearly nil"? Surely its 1/7th of the chance you had of picking it up before. If a team dedicated 7 times as many characters to the second pickup as they did to the first, they's have an equal chance wouldn't they? Or are you saying that there's a hidden mechanism involved to make it more difficult than that?

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 12:56 09/09/2002, Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl wrote:

If the 1R drops, it goes randomly into one of seven hexes: The hex it was
dropped or one of the adjoining.

HOWEVER, unless you know it is there (i.e. with a Locate) your chance of
grabbing it is nearly nil.

#9

Well, Laurence, thats the beautiful thing about MEPBM :slight_smile:
My ability to demonstrate may only be based on bad die rolls!

Actually, the game DOES include a difficulty mechanism for finding dropped
artifacts. Terrain, artifact level, etc. all factor in. This was well
discussed on the old GSI boards. The game 50 ds revealed they had expended
'many turns' of searching. Sigh. Could be they had a 95% find rate and
rolled 96 or better :stuck_out_tongue:

Jeff

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence G. Tilley [mailto:laurence@lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:02 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] One Ring was Defeatism in Middle Earth

At 12:56 09/09/2002, Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl > wrote:
>If the 1R drops, it goes randomly into one of seven hexes: The hex it was
>dropped or one of the adjoining.
>
>HOWEVER, unless you know it is there (i.e. with a Locate) your chance of
>grabbing it is nearly nil.

OK, to be more specific, I was told "it can't be _located_ for another 12
turns", could be read as meaning the Locate spells won't work on
it for 12
turns.

How can you demonstrate that the chances of getting it again is "nearly
nil"? Surely its 1/7th of the chance you had of picking it up
before. If
a team dedicated 7 times as many characters to the second pickup as they
did to the first, they's have an equal chance wouldn't they? Or are you
saying that there's a hidden mechanism involved to make it more difficult
than that?

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#10

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Richard Farrer" <richard@r...> wrote:

I agree that in general, the FP have clearly lost when they are in

this bad a position. However, in game 71, recently finished, the Free
were down to the Noldor, Sindar & Dwarves (and the last two went out
quite quickly as well) and continued playing. Why? The Noldor went
on a One Ring hunt. They found it and got it half way across the map
before dropping it. Yes,it did cost the DS, 14 of them at that point,
a lot of money each turn but I can hardly say that the Noldor were
playing on for that reason alone. I think that this is the *only*
reason to continue playing in this sort of situation.

Richard

I've been on 2 losing teams that went the one ring route. In both
cases we got it through a challenge. It was dropped immediately (and
never found again) in one case; dropped the turn after it was taken
(and never found again) in the other. The second case was the closest
I've seen to a one ring victory - it was only a few hexes from barad-dur.

Even a one-ring victory is incredibly hard if the team is far behind.
Once the other side is warned, they can afford to waste a lot of
characters lingering at barad-dur. I've seen some messages about the
possibility of stealing the one ring and not triggering a message;
that way is rather sneaky and actually could work. Closer to the
book, too :slight_smile:

cheers,

Marc

#11

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Laurence G. Tilley" <laurence@l...> wrote:

>I agree that in general, the FP have clearly lost when they are in

this

>bad a position. However, in game 71, recently finished, the Free were
>down to the Noldor, Sindar & Dwarves (and the last two went out quite
>quickly as well) and continued playing. Why? The Noldor went on a

One

>Ring hunt. They found it and got it half way across the map before
>dropping it. Yes,it did cost the DS, 14 of them at that point, a

lot of

>money each turn but I can hardly say that the Noldor were playing

on for

>that reason alone. I think that this is the *only* reason to continue
>playing in this sort of situation.

I've heard it said that once the One Ring is dropped, it cannot be

picked

up for another 12 turns. What do the wise folk here say, fact or

myth? If

it's true, the mechanism must serve the game companies very well.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

If it isn't impossible, it is nearly so. When I've been part of the
ring-hunt game we had galadriel with some ridiculous LAT chance and
100 mage rank. She could get a bead on the thing reliably until it
was found, and then no luck for quite a while...

So it does get harder, and it certainly seemed impossible at the time.

Marc

···

At 08:32 09/09/2002, Richard Farrer wrote: