I too am pretty sure that Arthedain73 has the answer right. Dragon or no, if you do not have an army left standing at the end of a combat, the population center survives. The problem with your pdf is not your hit power, but your constitution.
I use a higher number than Per’s 30k for a dragon’s hit though.
As said above, dragons add a nuclear bonus to the first round of combat, so if no army is present, it applies vs a pc.
From a recent set of turns where we have the full info from both sides and a convential Capture would have failed, I’m convinced the Destroy bonus acts as either Morale at 100 (the results fit perfectly, down to the last man, with Eichmann’s combat calculator) or as reducing the defense of the pc (also possible, and perhaps more logical. But the bonus has to be 12%+, not 10%, for the attack to have succeeded as it did. If this is the case, that is done only for purposes of success/failure, and the troop losses are calculated according to the original defense).
Hi there,
Originally posted by Arthedain73
[b]Gringo: … Your army had a constitution of 8, 160 points. A MT/castle with a loyalty of one has an attack value of 8,585. You had the strength to capture Tharbad (thanks to the dragon) but not the constitution to take the militia hit.You really should seek out a mentor to help you with the rule minutia, which I know can be both obscure and frustrating… .[/b]
Well,
There is this little thing that I didn’t want to mention since our team hasn’t been able to test so far. Or to put it more correctly we have tried it but we don’t have enough data to verify it.
The rule goes like this: The army that attacks the PC must have enough constitution to SURVIVE the battle (that is to have at least 100 men left when the battle is over) for the dragon to participate in the battle.
We burned the (undefended) Arthedain capital in a previous game with an army that had a dragon. The battle report did not mention a dragon (which is well known) so there is no telling if the dragon participated or not. When the battle was over there was still about 200 HC left.
The problem is that the army alone (plus damage arties, spells) should have enough firepower to destroy the PC anyway (depending on loyalty). It’s been difficult to retry this and have any kind of statistical data (you can’t always exchange information after the game is over with the opposition).
Only certain thing is that any attempt to use a dragon against an undefended PC with an army that can’t survive the attack fails miserably.
Symeon
I can emphatically confirm that dragons DO participate in pop center combat, and that the bonus they provide only occurs in the first round of combat. I have used this fact to great ends over the years.
One of my most recent examples was capturing 2908 with far less inherent army strength than required to overcome the defense of the pop center. The army constitution was high enough to absorb the first round of damage dealt by the city/fort, and with the dragon, had enough strength for the capture.
I have also run into the situation where the dragon did not add enough strength to overcome the defense of the pop center, but the army survived because its constitution was high enough to absorb that all-important first round damage. I’d have to go back into my files to find which dragon it was, but I can say that I calculated his strength at no more than 15k. Had it been higher, I would have taken the pop center.
I have heard that if you capture a pop with the help of a dragon, you still need the con to survive the damage from the pop to bo able to pull it of. But if you destroy the pop you don’t need the con, basicly 100MA with a dragon could destroy a fortified pop, is this correct ? (I can not find this issue addressed in the above postings)
Not true.
I have yet another recent example: I attempted to destroy 2508 with an army of 300 mixed troops towing Uruial. My army obviously could not withstand the damage dealt by the pop center, but I wanted to test the theory you mention. The army was routed, the pop center was untouched, and my commander lived, taking no wounds.
OK, thanks.
Any idea why the army commander apparenty survives when he has a dragon with him when he is always ? killed when trying to capture with insufficient con ?
Originally posted by Jeppe Skytte Spicker
[b]I have heard that if you capture a pop with the help of a dragon, you still need the con to survive the damage from the pop to bo able to pull it of. But if you destroy the pop you don’t need the con, basicly 100MA with a dragon could destroy a fortified pop, is this correct ? (I can not find this issue addressed in the above postings)
- Jeppe [/b]
Actually Jeppe. That exact scenario is the one Gringo posted. And yes that was my army that I exploded 
All part of the learning process hehe.
My army was 810 HI with a Dragon against a Fortified Pop Centre. I went for the destroy and lost. Commander took Zero damage.
One of two armies in this game that I lost to a learning process hehe (first one to a surprise challenge from Argeleb who I paid back by kidnap/execute later though and the blowup on pop center one)
After all discussion I feel like a moron…
I had 100 sailormen at Caldur, but, thinking that dragons don’t attack PC, I didn’t attack the raiding army, in order to save the fleet from certain death.
If I had attacked the army, the dragon would have been wasted against the 100 men, and I would have saved my town…
Stupid, stupid, stupid!!! 
Originally posted by Arthedain73
Pallandro: The defensive combat spells that i mentioned were for the attacking army NOT the defending militia.
OOPS sorry for idiot question…
I don’t have enough data to answer the question about when a commander dies in failed pop center combat. In the ‘old days’, it was fairly guaranteed that if you attacked a pop center and failed, your commander died. In recent years, I’ve noted several situations where I expected the commander to die, but he lived. If anyone has a proven rule of thumb on this one, I’d love to hear it. I’ve heard a couple of theories, but there haven’t been enough data points presented to sway my opinion.
I don’t have any complete knowledge myself. But my “guess” is that the closer the army’s constitution is to the defensive value of the pop. center, the greater chance of survival for the army commander when he loses the battle.
In game 230, the Corsairs attacked my town/fort (which I had threatened from him previously hehehe) with 1300 hi. His army strength was NOT enough to take the town, so the attack failed. However, his army constitution was greater than the def. value so he survived.
I’m convinced that if his constitution was only slightly less than the defensive value (army, poof!) he still would have survived, probably taking some wounds, but surviving nonetheless.
Nick