I know it has been discussed several times before, anyway the conclusion that have been achieved the previos ties doesn’t fit with what happened to me lately. So here I am again:
I’ve been dismayed recently when 2 small armies, in 2 different games ( one is game 225, the other is an italian game), destroyed a PC of mines in spite of being weaker than the constitution of the PC.
In the first case (game 225) a Khand Easterling army destroyed Caldur of the Corsairs.
The PC defence was 9730 (town/fort with 39 loyalty). The army strength, in the best case ( i mean: morale raised to 100, realations set to Hated, all the variables set to the highest point of the range: i.e. Warlord = 79; Solid Ranks = 75), was only 7393.
It means that this army got, at least, 32% bonus!!! That’s more than the 20% most people talked about ( note that I already included the 100 morale calculating the army strenght).
Moreover this army must have got also a bonus to his constitution since it wasn’t wiped out after the battle, even though it should have been.
The other battle was very similar: the QA capital (city/castle with 96 loyalty: defence 29400) was destroyed by 2 armies (Esterlings and Southern Gondor) whose total strength was only 23181. In this case the bonus needed was “only” 27%.
Can’t say anything about constitution of these armies since they have been deleted thanks to the Cloud Lord
If someone has more “numbers” (I’m referring to the DSs of 225) it could be interesting to see which bonus the Destroy order grants.
I think two big defensive spells would be enough to make up the difference. The Khand starts with a couple of mages right? Shields and Blessings would do the trick.
Some artifacts are known to provide secondary powers, like defensive spells, to non-mages. The DS could have used one of these artifacts. Remember, combat spells are NOT reported in army vs. pop. center combat.
Yeah, I forgot that defensive spells are not shown on battle reports of army vs pop centers.
Regarding NPCs, the Khand had ( and still has) a dragon at his services, but dragons doesn’t take part in battles against PCs.
His only role could have been to lower loyalty, but this should happen after the battle, not before. Right?
My understanding is that dragons are like artifacts; they DO have an effect in the first round of combat. If the first round is army vs. pop. center, then the dragon will add his strength to the army.
The same could be said of combat artifacts in your other game, or any other game: an army with 10,000 pts. worth of combat artifacts WILL have those points if their first battle is vs. a pop. center.
Nick is right Roberto. The dragon, alone, has firepower enough to overcome the defenses of all but a city/citadel with very high loyalty. The opposing troops could all be MAA, but with enough defnesive spells they might suffer ‘minor’ losses.
Dragons don’t involve themselves in PC combat… I can cut’n’paste a turn from my current game to prove it if you like
I’d also be interested in conjectures about how low-dmg armies can destroy high-con PC’s… the points about defensive spells are irrevlevant since they don’t effect the army’s offense and PC combat is a one-rounder…
El Gringo: I’m not in this game, but have been around a few of the Dragon in Pop Centre Combat debates. If you ARE willing to share that information from a pdf, I’d love to take a look. Text or Graphic select onto Word? Bitmap? When Arthedain73 says something about game mechanics, you usually take it to the bank. If you have evidence to refute this one, send it along and I’ll back you up!
In examples above, there seems to be no defensive army with pop center. However you all seem to be saying that a defensive spell can be cast by someone in the hexe without an army and that it will boost defenses of pop center. Did I read correctly?
This is a rather important peice of information if true, and can change much in a game. especially since it does not come out in turn reports…
It is also in blatant contradiction with rules.
Could someone please confirm that I understand correctly???
Dragons in 1650 DO work against PC’s if there is no defending army involved.
Put shortly dragons only “work” in the first round of combat (Delivering a 30K+ attackbonus), and a defending army will be the first round of combat. In the second round, the army (What is left) will attack the PC, and the dragon wont participate in that combat.
As requested, here are the cut’n’pastes from the turns (before comabt and ofter) in my current 1650 game where a Dragon did not assist in PC destruction when there was no defending army present.
-------------- Turn: Landed on the PC --------------
Army Commander : Commander Sispar Location : @ 1614 in Shore/Plains Climate is Mild
Army morale : 1 Warships : 0 Transports : 0 (4) Travel mode : Evasive
Troops Training Weapon Armor # Troops Troop Type
Hillmen footmen w/spears 17 10 0 816 Heavy Infantry
Baggage Train Leather Bronze Steel Mithril
Weapons - 0 0 0
Armor 0 0 0 0
Food 0 Out of Food !!
War machines 0
Characters traveling with army : - Khuzadrepa.
The Major Town/Castle of Tharbad flying the flag of Cardolan is here.
-------------- Next Turn: Attempting to Destroy the PC --------------
Battle at 1614
In the Mild climate of the Shore/Plains of 1614, a conflict took place about midday under a clear sky.
At the head of a demoralized army rode Commander Sispar of the nation of Rhudaur. The mount on which he rode
stood cautiously at the rear of the battle lines. Behind him the forming ranks were filled with:
Troops Weapons Armor Formations
816 Hillmen footmen w/spears wooden none a mob
The Major Town of Tharbad flying the flag of Cardolan is situated in the Shore/Plains here. It is fortified
by a Castle, and it is under siege or attack.
After the battle… Sispar’s forces found no enemy armies to fight.
The battle for Tharbad was brutal! The attacking forces fought for glory but the defenders fought for their
lives! The battle was in doubt until the very last man fell.
After the attack on the population center… Sispar’s army was destroyed/routed in the attack on the Major
Town. Sispar appeared to have survived. The Major Town has not been damaged. The Castle has not been
affected. The Major Town has been under siege/attack this turn. The Major Town now flies the flag of
Cardolan.
-------------- Same Turn: Character Report Section for the Army Commander--------------
Sispar was located in the Shore/Plains at 1614.
He was ordered to destroy the Major Town of Tharbad. See Combat Messages.
Khuzadrepa has left the army.
He was ordered to move. He accepted the movement orders.
He is currently in the Hills & Rough at 2209.
*** You’ll note Khuzadrepa left post combat, so he was there and did not participate. (Oh this should also clear up the misconception that army commanders always die when failing to nuke a PC, as a bonus heh.)
Once this game is over I’m sure we’ll be very happy to reveal our little secrets. But, until you guys surrender we just cant do that! Of course, if you are desperate for an answer, you guys can pack it in and we’ll tell you!! :>
Originally posted by El Gringo …As requested, here are the cut’n’pastes from the turns (before comabt and ofter) in my current 1650 game where a Dragon did not assist in PC destruction when there was no defending army present…
I can confirm that. I’m playing the Eothraim in the game that the battle took place (Game 77_1650).
We knew that Khuzadrepa was with that army and we were kind enough to warn them that they shouldn’t keep their hopes up. Off course they didn’t listen (but got lucky and the commander didn’t die - which is a first)
Our team has also tried in the past to use a dragon against a PC with NO defending armies with no effect. I don’t know how the word got around that dragons work like combat arties I (we) have not seen any proof for this (quite the opposite).
Gringo: Your army had a constitution of 8, 160 points. A MT/castle with a loyalty of one has an attack value of 8,585. You had the strength to capture Tharbad (thanks to the dragon) but not the constitution to take the militia hit.
You really should seek out a mentor to help you with the rule minutia, which I know can be both obscure and frustrating. Understand the game maker deliberately tries to be obscure to enhance the ‘fog of war’. The most realstic thing about this fantasy game is the heavy emphasis on human interaction and the fog of war.
(but got lucky and the commander didn’t die - which is a first)