I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the FP - this
might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents have
altered should affect things. Not sure what else would be appropriate?
Clint
Message text written by INTERNET:mepbmlist@egroups.com
I think the best you can do to help replayability and keeping new players
is
to address the 66% win percentage of the DS teams in 1650, (it seems to be
the most popular scenario).
<
I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the FP -
this
might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents have
altered should affect things. Not sure what else would be
appropriate?
Dragons are horribly abused. They weren't meant to be a tool of
the DS but just a chance encounter with many different possible
results. The cheat lists have made them into an endless +30,000
combat artifacts for the DS. A fix here is needed. Perhaps make them
an 'invisible' encounter. One that doesn't announce itself on pop
center reports thereby creating the Misty mountain camp
placement/dragon recruitment strategy. Fix this first and then see if
any other balance issue fixes are needed.
Better players do pick the DS positions. Why? Well for one they
are cooler. But mostly people pick them because it is easier to play
and to win as a DS. The Free must play well to win. The DS need not.
All the DS need do is survive long enough for their
agents/dragons/curse squads to take over the game.
The Free have two major problems that make them unattractive to
people playing to win. The success of the Free is for the most part
determined by only 3 of their nations, the Gondors and the Eothraim.
To do well the Free must do a lot of damage early in the game. Which
means they need good play from their frontline positions. If any of
these 3 drop early or just play badly it's going to be very hard for
the Free to win. It makes little difference how well Arthedain,
Cardolan and the Noldo are playing if NG rolls over. It is also very
unappealing to have your nation slaughtered off by agents. This just
isn't fun. It is hard and often frustrating to play the Free and many
games are determined by play or non-play by nations other then your
own. The Dark Servants don't suffer from this problem. Bad or
nonexistant play from any DS nation, while not something you want,
doesn't impact the game as greatly as NG sitting out the war. One bad
player won't lose the game for the DS. One bad player does often lose
the game for the Free.
facade
--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...> wrote:
I’d have to agree in that FP victory being determined so heavily by
SG, NG, and the EO; and the DS being much more independant
of the level of the play of their companions is a huge factor. The group
of people I’m playing in a team game with currently played and lost
as the DS about a year ago. The Quiet Avenger made some errors
early and went out before turn 4, the Ice King was a new player
failed to get a turn in, went out on turn 3 at the latest, the Witch King
dropped on turn 2, two neutrals got taken out early on, the other three
went FP.Still after all of these early game catastrophies,
they held out long past turn 20 before conceiding, with little doubt that
they could have drug it out another 10-15 turns before complete military
defeat. They held out this long largly due to the generating of dragon
encounters. While I’m sure they FP made errors(there are always some)
, it was nothing on the magnitute of what the DS suffered, and they had
no business being in that good of shape for that long.
While there are some FP positions that are less critical than others,
without some sort of strong showing early on, you guarantee the DS
surviving long enough to completely dominate you in the agent war, and
all your military superiority will mean nothing when the dragons are devouring
the armies that the agents don’t get. The DS just have better characters,
which were meant to be a counter to the numerical superiority of the FP armies,
however Dragon farming has taken to much of this away.
So basically, to win the FP have to have an advantage in some form or another
thats independent of the game. They either have to hope there are mass screwups
on the opposing team, or they have to have an insane level of cooperation and pray
that their opponents do not have the same. I personally find it discouraging going
into a game knowing that the other guy has to play under par for me to win.
I would be interested in playing a trial run game or two if one were to be set up, in
which the dragon encounters were randomized(manually if necessary). We can
blame anything we want for game imbalance, but its just talk until its tested. The
dragon encounters may be a bit to fatal for some, but I don’t think its unreasonable
to have the escape unhurt/hurt static option that works for both sides with 4 other
possible responses that result in random results so that they’re not just roaming
character killers.
From:
facade
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 11:04 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: DGE meets Harlequin
` Dragons are horribly abused. They weren’t meant to be a tool of
the DS but just a chance encounter with many different possible
results. The cheat lists have made them into an endless +30,000
combat artifacts for the DS. A fix here is needed. Perhaps make them
an ‘invisible’ encounter. One that doesn’t announce itself on pop
center reports thereby creating the Misty mountain camp
placement/dragon recruitment strategy. Fix this first and then see if
any other balance issue fixes are needed.Better players do pick the DS positions. Why? Well for one theyare cooler. But mostly people pick them because it is easier to play
and to win as a DS. The Free must play well to win. The DS need not.
All the DS need do is survive long enough for their
agents/dragons/curse squads to take over the game.The Free have two major problems that make them unattractive to
people playing to win. The success of the Free is for the most part
determined by only 3 of their nations, the Gondors and the Eothraim.
To do well the Free must do a lot of damage early in the game. Which
means they need good play from their frontline positions. If any of
these 3 drop early or just play badly it’s going to be very hard for
the Free to win. It makes little difference how well Arthedain,
Cardolan and the Noldo are playing if NG rolls over. It is also very
unappealing to have your nation slaughtered off by agents. This just
isn’t fun. It is hard and often frustrating to play the Free and many
games are determined by play or non-play by nations other then your
own. The Dark Servants don’t suffer from this problem. Bad or
nonexistant play from any DS nation, while not something you want,
doesn’t impact the game as greatly as NG sitting out the war. One bad
player won’t lose the game for the DS. One bad player does often lose
the game for the Free.facade
That's a an excellent point, I never realized it
before. You are absolutely right, the FP are
very dependent on those nations, where the DS
are not. And in most of my FP games, one or
more of those three nations (NG,SG,Eothraim)
either dropped or were ineffective and I felt
frustrated and helpless, however well I might
be doing in my position. Thank you for making
me understand this.
And I agree, for the DS the game is an outlast.
If they survive the first 10-15 turns, the game turns
very much in their favor.
Jeremy
> I have reguarly seen experienced players play the DS over the FP -
this
> might count for some of those issues. Also the way that Agents
have
> altered should affect things. Not sure what else would be
appropriate?Dragons are horribly abused. They weren't meant to be a tool of
the DS but just a chance encounter with many different possible
results. The cheat lists have made them into an endless +30,000
combat artifacts for the DS. A fix here is needed. Perhaps make them
an 'invisible' encounter. One that doesn't announce itself on pop
center reports thereby creating the Misty mountain camp
placement/dragon recruitment strategy. Fix this first and then see
if
any other balance issue fixes are needed.
Better players do pick the DS positions. Why? Well for one they
are cooler. But mostly people pick them because it is easier to play
and to win as a DS. The Free must play well to win. The DS need not.
All the DS need do is survive long enough for their
agents/dragons/curse squads to take over the game.The Free have two major problems that make them unattractive to
people playing to win. The success of the Free is for the most part
determined by only 3 of their nations, the Gondors and the Eothraim.
To do well the Free must do a lot of damage early in the game. Which
means they need good play from their frontline positions. If any of
these 3 drop early or just play badly it's going to be very hard for
the Free to win. It makes little difference how well Arthedain,
Cardolan and the Noldo are playing if NG rolls over. It is also very
unappealing to have your nation slaughtered off by agents. This just
isn't fun. It is hard and often frustrating to play the Free and
many
games are determined by play or non-play by nations other then your
own. The Dark Servants don't suffer from this problem. Bad or
nonexistant play from any DS nation, while not something you want,
doesn't impact the game as greatly as NG sitting out the war. One
bad
player won't lose the game for the DS. One bad player does often
lose
--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, "facade " <kzfoul@y...> wrote:
--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Clint Oldridge <allsorts@c...> wrote:
the game for the Free.facade
One early key advantage the DS have over their FP opponents is the
number of chararters that start in their capital on turn one. The best
the Free's have is four with South Gondor. Two seems to be the average
for the FP. Three is the lowest for for the dark servants with the
Witch King and Dragon Lord having those honors. Look at all of the
Mordor nations, 8 in the Blind Sorcerer capital, 7 in the Ice King and
Cloud Lord, and so on. During those early turns, having more
characters at home would be a good play balance.
This limitation also sets the tone for the game. Look at the Eothraim,
with one chararter in capital. if the 3 non army commanders were in
the capital, he could do 3x the orders. Poor North Gondor, by the time
she gets the commander from Calmarie and/or Minas Ithil to the capital
he need to hire another CO. How ofter does NG get a Mage? By what turn
does NG hire the first Emissary. If the NG elinated Alandur and
replaced him with a Emissary/Mage, there could be more balance.
An earlier posting I placed discuss different character abilities, you
all should look them up
Lucas
Good points; having fewer chars at the
capital is definitely a handicap for the FP.
(BTW, in the original version the Eothraim
did not start with even one capital character.
But it became standard DS practice to bombard
the capital on turn one with agents, steal
all the gold and assassinate the character
that was sent in to name new characters,
so GSI changed it very early on.)
Jeremy Richman
One early key advantage the DS have over their FP opponents is the
number of chararters that start in their capital on turn one. The
best
the Free's have is four with South Gondor. Two seems to be the
average
for the FP. Three is the lowest for for the dark servants with the
Witch King and Dragon Lord having those honors. Look at all of the
Mordor nations, 8 in the Blind Sorcerer capital, 7 in the Ice King
and
Cloud Lord, and so on. During those early turns, having more
characters at home would be a good play balance.This limitation also sets the tone for the game. Look at the
Eothraim,
with one chararter in capital. if the 3 non army commanders were in
the capital, he could do 3x the orders. Poor North Gondor, by the
time
she gets the commander from Calmarie and/or Minas Ithil to the
capital
he need to hire another CO. How ofter does NG get a Mage? By what
turn
does NG hire the first Emissary. If the NG elinated Alandur and
replaced him with a Emissary/Mage, there could be more balance.An earlier posting I placed discuss different character abilities,
you
--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, "lucas cuccia" <lucasc68@y...> wrote:
all should look them up
Lucas