Digest Number 1196

mepbmlist
#1

Must admit I haven't seen the film, although hope to do so soon. However having heard the various comments one thing that seems very bad is the wall walking orcs. I appreciate Richard's point but don't think it that water-tight. Sauraman had Uruk-hai, which the book hinted were orc/man cross-breeds but I don't think they made up all his forces. (The demand between the orcs as they flee across Rohen with Merry and Pippen show that a number of normal orcs were drawn into his forces).
   More seriously, if at least some 'normal' orcs could walk up walls then surely the defence of Minas Tirth, let alone may other seiges during the history of middle earth would be much different. (I know the army also consisted of many humans, trolls etc but there were large numbers of orcs and if they had the natural ability of walking up walls then given the numbers the defence would have been much harder if not impossible. - Also for instance two articles in the current Bree, the fall of Minas Ithil and the alternative defence of Minas Tirth. Both presume that orcs have to cross the walls or break down the gates.
  As such this change, while it might make for atmospheric effects is inconsistant with the background of middle earth, including other parts of the film.

    Steve

RD: well firstly, the visual effect of the Moria orcs walking up

walls was creepy - reminded you of spiders perhaps?

As for consistency, the Moria orcs were the common or garden

variety, relatively weak (in the book, even Sam the hobbit, who had
never wielded anything more deadly than a garden rake before, killed
one!).

OTOH Saruman's orc-host which assaulted Helm's Deep was (at least

in the film) comprised of Uruk-hai (super-orcs) who were much bigger,
heavier and more heavily armoured than common orcs like those of
Moria. No walking up walls for them!

···

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#2

I cant say for sure but I believe the creatures in moria were closer to
goblins the orcs. Certainly they physically resembles goblins more. (the D&D
varieties)

Steve

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Pickering" <steve_history@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1196

  Must admit I haven't seen the film, although hope to do so soon.

However having heard the various comments one thing that seems very bad is
the wall walking orcs. I appreciate Richard's point but don't think it
that water-tight. Sauraman had Uruk-hai, which the book hinted were orc/man
cross-breeds but I don't think they made up all his forces. (The demand
between the orcs as they flee across Rohen with Merry and Pippen show that a
number of normal orcs were drawn into his forces).

   More seriously, if at least some 'normal' orcs could walk up walls then

surely the defence of Minas Tirth, let alone may other seiges during the
history of middle earth would be much different. (I know the army also
consisted of many humans, trolls etc but there were large numbers of orcs
and if they had the natural ability of walking up walls then given the
numbers the defence would have been much harder if not impossible. - Also
for instance two articles in the current Bree, the fall of Minas Ithil and
the alternative defence of Minas Tirth. Both presume that orcs have to
cross the walls or break down the gates.

  As such this change, while it might make for atmospheric effects is

inconsistant with the background of middle earth, including other parts of
the film.

    Steve

> RD: well firstly, the visual effect of the Moria orcs walking up
walls was creepy - reminded you of spiders perhaps?
>
> As for consistency, the Moria orcs were the common or garden
variety, relatively weak (in the book, even Sam the hobbit, who had
never wielded anything more deadly than a garden rake before, killed
one!).
>
> OTOH Saruman's orc-host which assaulted Helm's Deep was (at least
in the film) comprised of Uruk-hai (super-orcs) who were much bigger,
heavier and more heavily armoured than common orcs like those of
Moria. No walking up walls for them!
>

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#3

Also, the craggy, chipped, mined, mountainous walls of Moria would probably
be easier to scale than the somewhat-more-smooth stonework of a wall or
tower.

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Mason" <smason@ccrtc.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1196

I cant say for sure but I believe the creatures in moria were closer to
goblins the orcs. Certainly they physically resembles goblins more. (the

D&D

varieties)

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Pickering" <steve_history@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1196

>
> Must admit I haven't seen the film, although hope to do so soon.
However having heard the various comments one thing that seems very bad is
the wall walking orcs. I appreciate Richard's point but don't think it
that water-tight. Sauraman had Uruk-hai, which the book hinted were

orc/man

cross-breeds but I don't think they made up all his forces. (The demand
between the orcs as they flee across Rohen with Merry and Pippen show that

a

number of normal orcs were drawn into his forces).
> More seriously, if at least some 'normal' orcs could walk up walls

then

surely the defence of Minas Tirth, let alone may other seiges during the
history of middle earth would be much different. (I know the army also
consisted of many humans, trolls etc but there were large numbers of orcs
and if they had the natural ability of walking up walls then given the
numbers the defence would have been much harder if not impossible. - Also
for instance two articles in the current Bree, the fall of Minas Ithil and
the alternative defence of Minas Tirth. Both presume that orcs have to
cross the walls or break down the gates.
> As such this change, while it might make for atmospheric effects is
inconsistant with the background of middle earth, including other parts of
the film.
>
> Steve
>
> > RD: well firstly, the visual effect of the Moria orcs walking up
> walls was creepy - reminded you of spiders perhaps?
> >
> > As for consistency, the Moria orcs were the common or garden
> variety, relatively weak (in the book, even Sam the hobbit, who had
> never wielded anything more deadly than a garden rake before, killed
> one!).
> >
> > OTOH Saruman's orc-host which assaulted Helm's Deep was (at least
> in the film) comprised of Uruk-hai (super-orcs) who were much bigger,
> heavier and more heavily armoured than common orcs like those of
> Moria. No walking up walls for them!
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits
your needs
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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>
>
>

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#4

Here`s my take on this...
the things in Moria ,which were annoyingly climbing walls like
cockroaches, were goblins.
Regarding the problem with wall-climbing beasts and seiges, if the
cockroach things are Goblins then they don`t come out during the day
as the sunlight has a deblitating effect on them. That`s why the Uruk-
Hai were bred--super Orcs that can move without detriment in
daylight, but who don`t have the same "skills" as Goblins. Such as
spiderskills!
In the book [and TTT movie] i believe the band that kidnaps Merry &
Pippin are a mixture of Sarumans Uruk-Hai and Saurons Orcs. This is
not clearly explained in the theatrical release of TTT. The fight
that erupted within the Orc Band was between these two groups. I`m
hoping that this will be more clearly shown in the DVD. It`s quite
clearly and entertainingly depicted in the book.

David

Also, the craggy, chipped, mined, mountainous walls of Moria would

probably

be easier to scale than the somewhat-more-smooth stonework of a

wall or

tower.

Russ

From: "Steve Mason" <smason@c...>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1196

> I cant say for sure but I believe the creatures in moria were

closer to

> goblins the orcs. Certainly they physically resembles goblins

more. (the

D&D
> varieties)
>
> Steve
> From: "Stephen Pickering" <steve_history@y...>
> To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 3:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1196
>
>
> >
> > Must admit I haven't seen the film, although hope to do so

soon.

> However having heard the various comments one thing that seems

very bad is

> the wall walking orcs. I appreciate Richard's point but don't

think it

> that water-tight. Sauraman had Uruk-hai, which the book hinted

were

orc/man
> cross-breeds but I don't think they made up all his forces. (The

demand

> between the orcs as they flee across Rohen with Merry and Pippen

show that

a
> number of normal orcs were drawn into his forces).
> > More seriously, if at least some 'normal' orcs could walk up

walls

then
> surely the defence of Minas Tirth, let alone may other seiges

during the

> history of middle earth would be much different. (I know the

army also

> consisted of many humans, trolls etc but there were large numbers

of orcs

> and if they had the natural ability of walking up walls then

given the

> numbers the defence would have been much harder if not

impossible. - Also

> for instance two articles in the current Bree, the fall of Minas

Ithil and

> the alternative defence of Minas Tirth. Both presume that orcs

have to

> cross the walls or break down the gates.
> > As such this change, while it might make for atmospheric

effects is

> inconsistant with the background of middle earth, including other

parts of

> the film.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > > RD: well firstly, the visual effect of the Moria orcs walking

up

> > walls was creepy - reminded you of spiders perhaps?
> > >
> > > As for consistency, the Moria orcs were the common or garden
> > variety, relatively weak (in the book, even Sam the hobbit, who

had

> > never wielded anything more deadly than a garden rake before,

killed

> > one!).
> > >
> > > OTOH Saruman's orc-host which assaulted Helm's Deep was (at

least

> > in the film) comprised of Uruk-hai (super-orcs) who were much

bigger,

> > heavier and more heavily armoured than common orcs like those of
> > Moria. No walking up walls for them!
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size

that fits

> your needs
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "R.K.Floyd" <rkfloyd@c...> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>

#5

  > Must admit I haven't seen the film, although hope to do so soon.
  However having heard the various comments one thing that seems very bad is
  the wall walking orcs. I appreciate Richard's point but don't think it
  that water-tight. Sauraman had Uruk-hai, which the book hinted were orc/man
  cross-breeds but I don't think they made up all his forces. (The demand
  between the orcs as they flee across Rohen with Merry and Pippen show that a
  number of normal orcs were drawn into his forces).
  > More seriously, if at least some 'normal' orcs could walk up walls then
  surely the defence of Minas Tirth, let alone may other seiges during the
  history of middle earth would be much different. (I know the army also
  consisted of many humans, trolls etc but there were large numbers of orcs
  and if they had the natural ability of walking up walls then given the
  numbers the defence would have been much harder if not impossible. - Also
  for instance two articles in the current Bree, the fall of Minas Ithil and
  the alternative defence of Minas Tirth. Both presume that orcs have to
  cross the walls or break down the gates.
  > As such this change, while it might make for atmospheric effects is
  inconsistant with the background of middle earth, including other parts of
  the film.
  >
  > Steve
  >
  > > RD: well firstly, the visual effect of the Moria orcs walking up
  > walls was creepy - reminded you of spiders perhaps?
  > >
  > > As for consistency, the Moria orcs were the common or garden
  > variety, relatively weak (in the book, even Sam the hobbit, who had
  > never wielded anything more deadly than a garden rake before, killed
  > one!).
  > >
  > > OTOH Saruman's orc-host which assaulted Helm's Deep was (at least
  > in the film) comprised of Uruk-hai (super-orcs) who were much bigger,
  > heavier and more heavily armoured than common orcs like those of
  > Moria. No walking up walls for them!
  > >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > ---------------------------------
  > With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits
  your needs
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···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Steve Mason
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 2:42 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1196

  I cant say for sure but I believe the creatures in moria were closer to
  goblins the orcs. Certainly they physically resembles goblins more. (the D&D
  varieties)

  Steve
  RD: I wish people wouldn't talk about orcs and goblins as though they are different creatures - they are different words for the SAME THING. Hobbits consistently referred to them as goblins, but elves, and Dunedain whose language derived from elvish, knew them as orcs.

  "Orc" derives from the Old English word for monster. Italian "orco" and French "ogre" have the same root and there is also a monstrous Celtic character called Ogyr Vran. I guess that when Tolkien wrote LoR, he wanted a stronger, more frightening name than "goblin" (which he used throughout "The Hobbit") and "orc" fitted the bill. But it is quite obvious that the goblins of the Misty Mountains in "The Hobbit" are the same creatures as the orcs of the Misty Mountains in LoR.

  Richard.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Stephen Pickering" <steve_history@yahoo.co.uk>
  To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 3:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1196