Digest Number 1535

Unfortunately, I do not share your view of this one Richard for all the
reasons you give and more.

I was horrified watching Aragorn beg the dead to help him.. He is the heir
of Isildur not a damned beggar, but this fit in with PJ's Aragoen which was
dramaticly different then the REAL one. In the movies Aragorn is an
excellent fighter but a lackluster leader and not at all kingly. He seems to
be hiding in Rivendell from his destiny and needed a pep talk from Elrond to
seek it. In the books, Aragorn has all of his magesty ( not all that is gold
does glitter) if not the actual throne. He was not a man who shirked his
duty but simply waited for the right opportunity to claim the kingship. This
was a fundamental change in Aragorn which I did not like, but fit right in
with the similarly remarkable changes in the characters of Theoden, Saruman
and Faramir. I could go on endlessly here, but these were not simply changes
to edit a massive work into a workable movie. This was Tolkien "fixed".

My favorite ME scene has to be Eowyn vs the Witch King and I was
disappointed in the movie version. My biggest gripe is that he cut the scene
in half, causing the scene to lose much of its excitement and tension, to
show Aragon, Legolas and Gimli disembarking from the corsair fleet. The
scene portrays none of the despair that Eowyn felt. In the book she was
despondent and hopeless. She had little chance in the encounter and she knew
it, but she did not flinch from her duty to defend her fallen king. Also, in
the book, the invincible Witch King has a moment of doubt when Eowyn is
found to be a woman and making the prophecy that he can not be killed by a
man have a new meaning. Unfortunately we do not get that reaction from the
nazgul because she does not reveal her sex until the moment of her killing
sword stroke. Also, where was the black breath?!!

I look forward to the extended edition of this one but, unfortunately, I do
not see additional footage or scenes fixing either of these two scenes.
Tim

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 5:15 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1535

There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Return of the King film
           From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:08:46 -0000
   From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Return of the King film

At last got to see this film. Brilliant, awe-inspiring! Best battle

scenes in cinematic history, and I really could not see the join between
human actors and cgi. Made Star Wars look juvenile.

Yes, the mumakil were too big, but didn't that make their defeat all the

more impressive?

Yes, the Nazgul didn't in the book snatch defenders from the parapets of

Minas Tirith, but hell it looked good and you could understand why the
defenders were terrified.

Yes, the orcs shouldn't have stormed the first wall of Minas Tirith, but

that was poetic licence to demonstrate how desperate was the plight of the
besieged Gondorians.

Yes, I am disappointed Jackson did not include the confrontation between

the Witch-King and Gandalf, but we still got the confrontation between the
Witch-king and Eowyn, which was quite well done.

Yes, it's a shame that Vincent Price's Saruman had no further part to

play, as VP is an excellent villain, but what would you cut instead?
Jackson did the right thing here, having Gandalf wrap it up saying 'he can
do no more harm' thus disposing of the scouring of the shire etc which would
be a wretched anti-climax after the Battle of the Pelennor fields and
outside Morannon.

It must have been very difficult for anyone who has not read the books to

follow anyway - the last thing the film needed was any more secondary
threads.

Yes I can pick holes in it - I didn't like the pathetic dwarf jokes and

why was Gimli, who hated horses, riding one whilst Eowyn, a born horsewoman,
was walking on the way to Helm's Deep? But I can forgive that because
Jackson makes up for it elsewhere.

Full marks to Jackson and his team - it's the best film of its kind since

the original Alien, and the best trilogy since film trologies were invented.

Richard.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________
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If the extended version of "Return of The King" is as
good as the "Two Towers" then much will be improved.
However, no matter how much the movies are improved
it's hard to beat the good old imagination and printed
word! :slight_smile: That said; I've found all three movies to
be very entertaining and the extended versions on DVD
to be excellent.

JCC

···

--- Tim <tminnig@socal.rr.com> wrote:

Unfortunately, I do not share your view of this one
Richard for all the
reasons you give and more.

I was horrified watching Aragorn beg the dead to
help him.. He is the heir
of Isildur not a damned beggar, but this fit in with
PJ's Aragoen which was
dramaticly different then the REAL one. In the
movies Aragorn is an
excellent fighter but a lackluster leader and not at
all kingly. He seems to
be hiding in Rivendell from his destiny and needed a
pep talk from Elrond to
seek it. In the books, Aragorn has all of his
magesty ( not all that is gold
does glitter) if not the actual throne. He was not a
man who shirked his
duty but simply waited for the right opportunity to
claim the kingship. This
was a fundamental change in Aragorn which I did not
like, but fit right in
with the similarly remarkable changes in the
characters of Theoden, Saruman
and Faramir. I could go on endlessly here, but these
were not simply changes
to edit a massive work into a workable movie. This
was Tolkien "fixed".

My favorite ME scene has to be Eowyn vs the Witch
King and I was
disappointed in the movie version. My biggest gripe
is that he cut the scene
in half, causing the scene to lose much of its
excitement and tension, to
show Aragon, Legolas and Gimli disembarking from the
corsair fleet. The
scene portrays none of the despair that Eowyn felt.
In the book she was
despondent and hopeless. She had little chance in
the encounter and she knew
it, but she did not flinch from her duty to defend
her fallen king. Also, in
the book, the invincible Witch King has a moment of
doubt when Eowyn is
found to be a woman and making the prophecy that he
can not be killed by a
man have a new meaning. Unfortunately we do not get
that reaction from the
nazgul because she does not reveal her sex until the
moment of her killing
sword stroke. Also, where was the black breath?!!

I look forward to the extended edition of this one
but, unfortunately, I do
not see additional footage or scenes fixing either
of these two scenes.
Tim

----- Original Message -----
From: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 5:15 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1535

> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Return of the King film
> From: "richard devereux"
<rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________________

>

________________________________________________________________________

>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:08:46 -0000
> From: "richard devereux"
<rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
> Subject: Return of the King film
>
> At last got to see this film. Brilliant,
awe-inspiring! Best battle
scenes in cinematic history, and I really could not
see the join between
human actors and cgi. Made Star Wars look juvenile.
>
> Yes, the mumakil were too big, but didn't that
make their defeat all the
more impressive?
>
> Yes, the Nazgul didn't in the book snatch
defenders from the parapets of
Minas Tirith, but hell it looked good and you could
understand why the
defenders were terrified.
>
> Yes, the orcs shouldn't have stormed the first
wall of Minas Tirith, but
that was poetic licence to demonstrate how desperate
was the plight of the
besieged Gondorians.
>
> Yes, I am disappointed Jackson did not include the
confrontation between
the Witch-King and Gandalf, but we still got the
confrontation between the
Witch-king and Eowyn, which was quite well done.
>
> Yes, it's a shame that Vincent Price's Saruman had
no further part to
play, as VP is an excellent villain, but what would
you cut instead?
Jackson did the right thing here, having Gandalf
wrap it up saying 'he can
do no more harm' thus disposing of the scouring of
the shire etc which would
be a wretched anti-climax after the Battle of the
Pelennor fields and
outside Morannon.
>
> It must have been very difficult for anyone who
has not read the books to
follow anyway - the last thing the film needed was
any more secondary
threads.
>
> Yes I can pick holes in it - I didn't like the
pathetic dwarf jokes and
why was Gimli, who hated horses, riding one whilst
Eowyn, a born horsewoman,
was walking on the way to Helm's Deep? But I can
forgive that because
Jackson makes up for it elsewhere.
>
> Full marks to Jackson and his team - it's the best
film of its kind since
the original Alien, and the best trilogy since film
trologies were invented.
>
> Richard.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
>
>
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________________

>

________________________________________________________________________

>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
>

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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>

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<<I was horrified watching Aragorn beg the dead to help him..>>

He did not strike me as a " damn beggar begging" when I saw it though
perhaps I missed something. I can't recall the exact words Aragorn spoke,
but it was something along the lines of "You will bow to ME, the heir of
Isildur. FIGHT for ME, and I will release you from your oath!" It seemed
like he was commanding them, not begging them. IMHO.

<<Also, in

the book, the invincible Witch King has a moment of doubt when Eowyn is
found to be a woman

I guess it's hard to visually display doubt with something invisible save
for a cloak and crown. Maybe in the extended version we'll hear him mutter
"oh, bugger, it's a girl!" or something. :slight_smile:

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim" <tminnig@socal.rr.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1535

Unfortunately, I do not share your view of this one Richard for all the
reasons you give and more.

I was horrified watching Aragorn beg the dead to help him.. He is the heir
of Isildur not a damned beggar, but this fit in with PJ's Aragoen which

was

dramaticly different then the REAL one. In the movies Aragorn is an
excellent fighter but a lackluster leader and not at all kingly. He seems

to

be hiding in Rivendell from his destiny and needed a pep talk from Elrond

to

seek it. In the books, Aragorn has all of his magesty ( not all that is

gold

does glitter) if not the actual throne. He was not a man who shirked his
duty but simply waited for the right opportunity to claim the kingship.

This

was a fundamental change in Aragorn which I did not like, but fit right in
with the similarly remarkable changes in the characters of Theoden,

Saruman

and Faramir. I could go on endlessly here, but these were not simply

changes

to edit a massive work into a workable movie. This was Tolkien "fixed".

My favorite ME scene has to be Eowyn vs the Witch King and I was
disappointed in the movie version. My biggest gripe is that he cut the

scene

in half, causing the scene to lose much of its excitement and tension, to
show Aragon, Legolas and Gimli disembarking from the corsair fleet. The
scene portrays none of the despair that Eowyn felt. In the book she was
despondent and hopeless. She had little chance in the encounter and she

knew

it, but she did not flinch from her duty to defend her fallen king. Also,

in

the book, the invincible Witch King has a moment of doubt when Eowyn is
found to be a woman and making the prophecy that he can not be killed by a
man have a new meaning. Unfortunately we do not get that reaction from the
nazgul because she does not reveal her sex until the moment of her killing
sword stroke. Also, where was the black breath?!!

I look forward to the extended edition of this one but, unfortunately, I

do

not see additional footage or scenes fixing either of these two scenes.
Tim

----- Original Message -----
From: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 5:15 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Digest Number 1535

> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Return of the King film
> From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:08:46 -0000
> From: "richard devereux" <rd@pagan-47.fsnet.co.uk>
> Subject: Return of the King film
>
> At last got to see this film. Brilliant, awe-inspiring! Best battle
scenes in cinematic history, and I really could not see the join between
human actors and cgi. Made Star Wars look juvenile.
>
> Yes, the mumakil were too big, but didn't that make their defeat all the
more impressive?
>
> Yes, the Nazgul didn't in the book snatch defenders from the parapets of
Minas Tirith, but hell it looked good and you could understand why the
defenders were terrified.
>
> Yes, the orcs shouldn't have stormed the first wall of Minas Tirith, but
that was poetic licence to demonstrate how desperate was the plight of the
besieged Gondorians.
>
> Yes, I am disappointed Jackson did not include the confrontation between
the Witch-King and Gandalf, but we still got the confrontation between the
Witch-king and Eowyn, which was quite well done.
>
> Yes, it's a shame that Vincent Price's Saruman had no further part to
play, as VP is an excellent villain, but what would you cut instead?
Jackson did the right thing here, having Gandalf wrap it up saying 'he can
do no more harm' thus disposing of the scouring of the shire etc which

would

be a wretched anti-climax after the Battle of the Pelennor fields and
outside Morannon.
>
> It must have been very difficult for anyone who has not read the books

to

follow anyway - the last thing the film needed was any more secondary
threads.
>
> Yes I can pick holes in it - I didn't like the pathetic dwarf jokes and
why was Gimli, who hated horses, riding one whilst Eowyn, a born

horsewoman,

was walking on the way to Helm's Deep? But I can forgive that because
Jackson makes up for it elsewhere.
>
> Full marks to Jackson and his team - it's the best film of its kind

since

the original Alien, and the best trilogy since film trologies were

invented.

>
> Richard.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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