RD: as some of the chevrons >> seem to have gone missing on the following
conversation, I've taken the liberty of inserting AG where it's Alan
talking.
RD: As the guy who came up with the WotR scenario, I take some
responsibility for this. Consider game 29 an experiment. If enough
people
want to play it again, we can ask Clint to make any necessary tweaks, like
adding food for the extra troops. If that's the only thing wrong with it,
I
think I can be quite pleased with my work!
AG: I suggest that we wait until the end of the game and poll all those
playing
for their opinions on the scenario for any changes that should be made.
Undoubtedly there will be a few suggested, as Richard says it's an
experiment and in my opinion a good one which I'll happily play again and
recommend to anyone else interested.
RD: As you say, there is a long way to go in this game yet, but I for one
am
looking forward to a return match (swapping sides) if the guys currently
playing the FP are up for it.
AG: I'm all for a rematch, in fact if you hadn't suggested I would have
nearer
the game end. I'm pretty sure that most of my team, game loads permitting,
would be up for it as well. If the rematch goes ahead and others show an
interest then we may have more than one WoTR game running. Hopefully it'll
become a permanent part of ME-PBM.
RD: Seeing that nobody gave the DS a prayer when they saw the setup, I'm
very
pleased to be part of the team that's proving 'em all wrong!
AG: However, I'm not so sure that I agree with this statement and would
like to
know how you arrived at it. Ok so the freeps start with loads more pop
centres giving a better tax base and more potential recruitment much like
1650. The same though can be said for the DS, several of whom IMHO are
better off pop centre wise in the WoTR than they are in 1650. Namely the
Dragon Lord with the extra couple of villages and the 2nd MT in Mordor,
which is as safe as you can get. Also the FK starts off with the same as
1650 + two new and secure villages in Mordor. The IK starts off with a
larger tax base due to 3223 now being a MT/T (was there any basis for this
improvement Richard or as the IK did you just want to start with nice safe
back-up in Mordor).
RD: several points here:
1) I designed the WotR scenario to make it, as far as possible within the
constraints of the game program, reflect the military situation as
described
by Tolkien, ie armies numbered in thousands rather than the hundreds of
GSI's 2950 game. This meant giving both sides more pops to generate and
support extra troops. I cannot at this distance in time quote you chapter
and verse of the comments I received, but the general trend was that the FP
should win because of their overwhelming economic advantage. Not a single
person came out and said they thought the DS would win.
2) I don't want to get bogged down in a debate about individual cases, but
I
will just say that the extra MTs for both DrL and IcK were in response to
strong representations from potential players. The changes as finally
implemented by Harlequin were, obviously, put in place BEFORE Harlequin
allocated nations to the members of each team. It is factually incorrect,
not to say offensive, to suggest that I tweaked a position for personal
gain. As a starting player, you should know this could not be done. Or
are
you just trying to wind me up?
AG: don't worry it's just a wind up, and it's not as if the FP's have much
else to laugh about just now.
AG: This is a situation that the DS are used too in 1650 and in that
scenario
they face much larger freep armies early on than they do in either the
basic
2950 or WoTR scenarios. Also in military terms the extra troops given to
the
DS at game start means that they can hold the freeps at Osgiliath much
easier than before and if SG doesn't arrive on T2 (battle on T3) they can
defeat the starting NG armies, with the potential for an additional 4000
troops arriving end of T3 to support them. This is considering maximum
recruitment from both sides of HI and the Dog Lord sending his armies to
Osgiliath, there's no threat from the north like in 1650 so why shouldn't
he. If you want to see my figures for the armies I'll post them. If
anything
I'd say that it's much easier for the DS to weather any attempted
intrusions
into Mordor in the WoTR than in 1650, and are more likely to be able to
break through if the FP's aren't careful. Which is what did happen, I
wonder
what the game would look like now if NG had brought the bridges down.
So considering this I can't see where the belief that the DS didn't have a
prayer came from, and this doesn't consider the extra troops in the north,
which can instantly cause the FP's problems or the extra gold the DS all
start with.
Anyway I'm looking forward to hearing the replies to this which will
undoubtedly try to correct me. Now I'm off to consider just what we can do
about the situation in Gondor.
Cheers
Alan
RD: I was only telling you about the feedback I received before the game,
see above. It's no good NOW, after the destruction of NGo, pointing out
hitherto unperceived DS advantages - that's just being wise after the
event.
Tolkien was very clear that the DS had a realistic (or better!) chance of
storming Minas Tirith. In the book, the city was only saved by the
intervention of BOTH RoR and SGo. As neither RoR nor SGo turned up in the
game, the city fell. 'Historically' accurate, wouldn't you agree?
Regards,
Richard.
AG: I'm not complaining about the perceived DS advantages after the fact
only pointing out that I couldn't understand how you could perceive the DS
being at a disadvantage at game start. The FP's have a huge economic
advantage in 1650, but the DS usually win. Also I'm not going on about these
because NG was destroyed, that I believe was down to poor play on our side
and could have been avoided. This was really just an opinion on your
observation that the DS didn't have a prayer at game start. It may have
ended up being historically accurate, but also damn annoying from our point
of view.
Also I signed up for the game late on at the suggestion of a team mate, so
didn't get a look at the set-ups until they arrived, not saying I would have
noticed this straight off however.
Anyway, i'm looking forward to playing the DS in the rematch when it happens
as are the members of the FP team I've talked to so far. Also I do like the
scenario better than the basic 2950 set-up because it does what you hoped it
would, ie allowing for large armies numbering 1000's rather than 100's to be
created and maintained.
Cheers
Alan
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard John Devereux [mailto:devereux@lineone.net]
Sent: 05 January 2001 13:50
To: mepbmlist@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] WoTR G29
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Gourlay" <alangourlay@theeternal.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 12:20 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] WoTR G29
