Diplomacy and bluffing

mepbmlist
#1

I don't think that's the answer. We need to look at the house rules for the main standard games, and see if we can put "reasonable bluffing" opportunities back in, by consent of a majority of players. I suggest that neutrals might not be allowed to communicate, except anonymously through the GM, for say 3 or 5 turns. But you can't do this for just some games, as it would immediately single out the neutrals in those games as being tricky types. That's what I mean keeping the hose rules under review. It's about considering changing what is the default, not just going for temporary tweaks.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 13:19 23/07/2002, Clint wrote:

I would consider
running a limited diplomacy game but for now I doubt there is a player base
for it at present.

#2

Anyone else want this?

Clint

···

> I would consider
>running a limited diplomacy game but for now I doubt there is a player base
>for it at present.

I don't think that's the answer. We need to look at the house rules for
the main standard games, and see if we can put "reasonable bluffing"
opportunities back in, by consent of a majority of players. I suggest that
neutrals might not be allowed to communicate, except anonymously through
the GM, for say 3 or 5 turns. But you can't do this for just some games,
as it would immediately single out the neutrals in those games as being
tricky types. That's what I mean keeping the hose rules under
review. It's about considering changing what is the default, not just
going for temporary tweaks.

#3

The idea is appealing. With official diplomatic messages the only
way to communicate with teammates, it adds that interesting delay
factor so intel passed between teammates is one turn late.

And negotiations with the neutrals is also a bit harder, but that
would just make things more interesting. :slight_smile:

- Ben

--- In mepbmlist@y..., Middle Earth PBM Games <me@M...> wrote:

Anyone else want this?

Clint

> > I would consider
> >running a limited diplomacy game but for now I doubt there is a

player base

> >for it at present.
>
>I don't think that's the answer. We need to look at the house

rules for

>the main standard games, and see if we can put "reasonable

bluffing"

>opportunities back in, by consent of a majority of players. I

suggest that

>neutrals might not be allowed to communicate, except anonymously

through

>the GM, for say 3 or 5 turns. But you can't do this for just some

games,

>as it would immediately single out the neutrals in those games as

being

>tricky types. That's what I mean keeping the hose rules under
>review. It's about considering changing what is the default, not

just

···

>going for temporary tweaks.

#4

I guess I've played in my share of games, and there are two different things
that can go on:

1) Out and out lying and cheating, (NEVER ACCEPTABLE) and
2) The Con (SOMETIMES ACCEPTABLE).

On their face, there may not be a lot of difference. However, unlike chess,
this is a game of negotiation. Negotiation involves all levels of
communication, including misdirection.

That said, I think here are some clear guidelines. If you disagree, then
work on this. I think it can form the basis of an FAQ on "Backstabbing in
Middle Earth":

Sending stuff
1) Do not set up fake email accounts, street addresses, etc. Another player
doing this ruined at least one game for me.
2) Do not send actual emails, etc., to other players addressed as anything
other than your country.
3) You CAN still send anonomous messages to other players through ME as of
last summer. This is a great opportunity to make up anything you want.
4) Do send ACCIDENTAL emails to the other side. For example, I've seen a
player, say Northmen, send a fake email to the FP team, but then
"Accidentally" include a Neutral or DS, say the Rhun or WK in on the email
chain.
Bottom line, if you personally send it and sign it, keep your real name and
country. If you send the anonomous deal, then put in whatever you want. The
reliability drops, but there you go.

Actual Deals
1) Deals are made to be broken.
2) Broken Deals will be remembered.
Bottom line, you can tell a guy: I will send my army to hex x to block. Then
you have to decide... keep your word or burn the other player. If you burn
the other player, they will remember it. You may have to do some fast
explaining about your orders getting messed up, but whatever.
Same thing with committments to turn Good, Evil, etc. on any given turn.
I will say that nothing irritates anyone more than thinking you have a deal
and then seeing it go up in smoke.

The best Cons are those where you MAKE the other guy behave in a way they
don't want to by CONTINUALLY telling the truth. They have no one to complain
to but themselves. The best players I've bumped into never gave me false
information but still managed to hoodwink me...

Finally, Neutrals.
1) Don't cry if you threaten neutrals and then they break their word. I have
seen emails from DS and FP to Neutrals that was one step short of
threatening to go over and beat the guy personally if they did not commit by
x turn.
2) If you are a Neutral and get PDFs from either side, don't circulate them.
If you want to repackage the info, fine, but I'm personally not impressed
when that happens.

Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl

#5

I have to agree with pretty much all of this. Aplayer should never
send communications out pretending they are from any nation but his
own.

Anonymous messages, or deliberately leaked "red herrings" are fair
enough, anyone in reciept of such will be justifiably cautious.

I am positive ME could frame some house rules along these lines.

David Everett

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl" <webguys@l...> wrote:

I guess I've played in my share of games, and there are two

different things

that can go on:

1) Out and out lying and cheating, (NEVER ACCEPTABLE) and
2) The Con (SOMETIMES ACCEPTABLE).

On their face, there may not be a lot of difference. However,

unlike chess,

this is a game of negotiation. Negotiation involves all levels of
communication, including misdirection.

That said, I think here are some clear guidelines. If you disagree,

then

work on this. I think it can form the basis of an FAQ

on "Backstabbing in

Middle Earth":

Sending stuff
1) Do not set up fake email accounts, street addresses, etc.

Another player

doing this ruined at least one game for me.
2) Do not send actual emails, etc., to other players addressed as

anything

other than your country.
3) You CAN still send anonomous messages to other players through

ME as of

last summer. This is a great opportunity to make up anything you

want.

4) Do send ACCIDENTAL emails to the other side. For example, I've

seen a

player, say Northmen, send a fake email to the FP team, but then
"Accidentally" include a Neutral or DS, say the Rhun or WK in on

the email

chain.
Bottom line, if you personally send it and sign it, keep your real

name and

country. If you send the anonomous deal, then put in whatever you

want. The

reliability drops, but there you go.

Actual Deals
1) Deals are made to be broken.
2) Broken Deals will be remembered.
Bottom line, you can tell a guy: I will send my army to hex x to

block. Then

you have to decide... keep your word or burn the other player. If

you burn

the other player, they will remember it. You may have to do some

fast

explaining about your orders getting messed up, but whatever.
Same thing with committments to turn Good, Evil, etc. on any given

turn.

I will say that nothing irritates anyone more than thinking you

have a deal

and then seeing it go up in smoke.

The best Cons are those where you MAKE the other guy behave in a

way they

don't want to by CONTINUALLY telling the truth. They have no one to

complain

to but themselves. The best players I've bumped into never gave me

false

information but still managed to hoodwink me...

Finally, Neutrals.
1) Don't cry if you threaten neutrals and then they break their

word. I have

seen emails from DS and FP to Neutrals that was one step short of
threatening to go over and beat the guy personally if they did not

commit by

x turn.
2) If you are a Neutral and get PDFs from either side, don't

circulate them.

If you want to repackage the info, fine, but I'm personally not

impressed

···

when that happens.

Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl

#6

How would players feel about us implementing this?

Clint

···

I have to agree with pretty much all of this. Aplayer should never
send communications out pretending they are from any nation but his
own.

Anonymous messages, or deliberately leaked "red herrings" are fair
enough, anyone in reciept of such will be justifiably cautious.

I am positive ME could frame some house rules along these lines.

David Everett

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl" <webguys@l...> wrote:
> I guess I've played in my share of games, and there are two
different things
> that can go on:
>
> 1) Out and out lying and cheating, (NEVER ACCEPTABLE) and
> 2) The Con (SOMETIMES ACCEPTABLE).
>
> On their face, there may not be a lot of difference. However,
unlike chess,
> this is a game of negotiation. Negotiation involves all levels of
> communication, including misdirection.
>
> That said, I think here are some clear guidelines. If you disagree,
then
> work on this. I think it can form the basis of an FAQ
on "Backstabbing in
> Middle Earth":
>
> Sending stuff
> 1) Do not set up fake email accounts, street addresses, etc.
Another player
> doing this ruined at least one game for me.
> 2) Do not send actual emails, etc., to other players addressed as
anything
> other than your country.
> 3) You CAN still send anonomous messages to other players through
ME as of
> last summer. This is a great opportunity to make up anything you
want.
> 4) Do send ACCIDENTAL emails to the other side. For example, I've
seen a
> player, say Northmen, send a fake email to the FP team, but then
> "Accidentally" include a Neutral or DS, say the Rhun or WK in on
the email
> chain.
> Bottom line, if you personally send it and sign it, keep your real
name and
> country. If you send the anonomous deal, then put in whatever you
want. The
> reliability drops, but there you go.
>
> Actual Deals
> 1) Deals are made to be broken.
> 2) Broken Deals will be remembered.
> Bottom line, you can tell a guy: I will send my army to hex x to
block. Then
> you have to decide... keep your word or burn the other player. If
you burn
> the other player, they will remember it. You may have to do some
fast
> explaining about your orders getting messed up, but whatever.
> Same thing with committments to turn Good, Evil, etc. on any given
turn.
> I will say that nothing irritates anyone more than thinking you
have a deal
> and then seeing it go up in smoke.
>
> The best Cons are those where you MAKE the other guy behave in a
way they
> don't want to by CONTINUALLY telling the truth. They have no one to
complain
> to but themselves. The best players I've bumped into never gave me
false
> information but still managed to hoodwink me...
>
> Finally, Neutrals.
> 1) Don't cry if you threaten neutrals and then they break their
word. I have
> seen emails from DS and FP to Neutrals that was one step short of
> threatening to go over and beat the guy personally if they did not
commit by
> x turn.
> 2) If you are a Neutral and get PDFs from either side, don't
circulate them.
> If you want to repackage the info, fine, but I'm personally not
impressed
> when that happens.
>
> Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl

#7

I for one already play by these rules and would like to see them
implemented.
Steve Mason (not the one who cheated) :o)

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: An overview on the art of the Backstab

How would players feel about us implementing this?

Clint

>I have to agree with pretty much all of this. Aplayer should never
>send communications out pretending they are from any nation but his
>own.
>
>Anonymous messages, or deliberately leaked "red herrings" are fair
>enough, anyone in reciept of such will be justifiably cautious.
>
>I am positive ME could frame some house rules along these lines.
>
>David Everett
>
>
>--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl" <webguys@l...> wrote:
> > I guess I've played in my share of games, and there are two
>different things
> > that can go on:
> >
> > 1) Out and out lying and cheating, (NEVER ACCEPTABLE) and
> > 2) The Con (SOMETIMES ACCEPTABLE).
> >
> > On their face, there may not be a lot of difference. However,
>unlike chess,
> > this is a game of negotiation. Negotiation involves all levels of
> > communication, including misdirection.
> >
> > That said, I think here are some clear guidelines. If you disagree,
>then
> > work on this. I think it can form the basis of an FAQ
>on "Backstabbing in
> > Middle Earth":
> >
> > Sending stuff
> > 1) Do not set up fake email accounts, street addresses, etc.
>Another player
> > doing this ruined at least one game for me.
> > 2) Do not send actual emails, etc., to other players addressed as
>anything
> > other than your country.
> > 3) You CAN still send anonomous messages to other players through
>ME as of
> > last summer. This is a great opportunity to make up anything you
>want.
> > 4) Do send ACCIDENTAL emails to the other side. For example, I've
>seen a
> > player, say Northmen, send a fake email to the FP team, but then
> > "Accidentally" include a Neutral or DS, say the Rhun or WK in on
>the email
> > chain.
> > Bottom line, if you personally send it and sign it, keep your real
>name and
> > country. If you send the anonomous deal, then put in whatever you
>want. The
> > reliability drops, but there you go.
> >
> > Actual Deals
> > 1) Deals are made to be broken.
> > 2) Broken Deals will be remembered.
> > Bottom line, you can tell a guy: I will send my army to hex x to
>block. Then
> > you have to decide... keep your word or burn the other player. If
>you burn
> > the other player, they will remember it. You may have to do some
>fast
> > explaining about your orders getting messed up, but whatever.
> > Same thing with committments to turn Good, Evil, etc. on any given
>turn.
> > I will say that nothing irritates anyone more than thinking you
>have a deal
> > and then seeing it go up in smoke.
> >
> > The best Cons are those where you MAKE the other guy behave in a
>way they
> > don't want to by CONTINUALLY telling the truth. They have no one to
>complain
> > to but themselves. The best players I've bumped into never gave me
>false
> > information but still managed to hoodwink me...
> >
> > Finally, Neutrals.
> > 1) Don't cry if you threaten neutrals and then they break their
>word. I have
> > seen emails from DS and FP to Neutrals that was one step short of
> > threatening to go over and beat the guy personally if they did not
>commit by
> > x turn.
> > 2) If you are a Neutral and get PDFs from either side, don't
>circulate them.
> > If you want to repackage the info, fine, but I'm personally not
>impressed
> > when that happens.
> >
> > Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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#8

The idea is appealing. With official diplomatic messages the only
  way to communicate with teammates, it adds that interesting delay
  factor so intel passed between teammates is one turn late.

  And negotiations with the neutrals is also a bit harder, but that
  would just make things more interesting. :slight_smile:

  - Ben
  RD: I agree it's a good idea, but I can't start any more game until one of my current ones finishes.

  Richard.

  --- In mepbmlist@y..., Middle Earth PBM Games <me@M...> wrote:
  > Anyone else want this?
  >
  > Clint
  >
  >
  > > > I would consider
  > > >running a limited diplomacy game but for now I doubt there is a
  player base
  > > >for it at present.
  > >
  > >I don't think that's the answer. We need to look at the house
  rules for
  > >the main standard games, and see if we can put "reasonable
  bluffing"
  > >opportunities back in, by consent of a majority of players. I
  suggest that
  > >neutrals might not be allowed to communicate, except anonymously
  through
  > >the GM, for say 3 or 5 turns. But you can't do this for just some
  games,
  > >as it would immediately single out the neutrals in those games as
  being
  > >tricky types. That's what I mean keeping the hose rules under
  > >review. It's about considering changing what is the default, not
  just
  > >going for temporary tweaks.

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              ADVERTISEMENT
             
  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: benmin18
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:30 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Diplomacy and bluffing

#9

I guess I've played in my share of games, and there are two different things
  that can go on:

  1) Out and out lying and cheating, (NEVER ACCEPTABLE) and
  2) The Con (SOMETIMES ACCEPTABLE).

  On their face, there may not be a lot of difference. However, unlike chess,
  this is a game of negotiation. Negotiation involves all levels of
  communication, including misdirection.

  That said, I think here are some clear guidelines. If you disagree, then
  work on this. I think it can form the basis of an FAQ on "Backstabbing in
  Middle Earth":

  Sending stuff
  1) Do not set up fake email accounts, street addresses, etc. Another player
  doing this ruined at least one game for me.
  2) Do not send actual emails, etc., to other players addressed as anything
  other than your country.
  3) You CAN still send anonomous messages to other players through ME as of
  last summer. This is a great opportunity to make up anything you want.
  4) Do send ACCIDENTAL emails to the other side. For example, I've seen a
  player, say Northmen, send a fake email to the FP team, but then
  "Accidentally" include a Neutral or DS, say the Rhun or WK in on the email
  chain.
  Bottom line, if you personally send it and sign it, keep your real name and
  country. If you send the anonomous deal, then put in whatever you want. The
  reliability drops, but there you go.

  Actual Deals
  1) Deals are made to be broken.
  2) Broken Deals will be remembered.
  Bottom line, you can tell a guy: I will send my army to hex x to block. Then
  you have to decide... keep your word or burn the other player. If you burn
  the other player, they will remember it. You may have to do some fast
  explaining about your orders getting messed up, but whatever.
  Same thing with committments to turn Good, Evil, etc. on any given turn.
  I will say that nothing irritates anyone more than thinking you have a deal
  and then seeing it go up in smoke.

  The best Cons are those where you MAKE the other guy behave in a way they
  don't want to by CONTINUALLY telling the truth. They have no one to complain
  to but themselves. The best players I've bumped into never gave me false
  information but still managed to hoodwink me...

  Finally, Neutrals.
  1) Don't cry if you threaten neutrals and then they break their word. I have
  seen emails from DS and FP to Neutrals that was one step short of
  threatening to go over and beat the guy personally if they did not commit by
  x turn.
  2) If you are a Neutral and get PDFs from either side, don't circulate them.
  If you want to repackage the info, fine, but I'm personally not impressed
  when that happens.

  Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl
  RD: There is one very simple rule when communicating with neutrals: don't tell them anything that you don't mind the enemy knowing about. Neutrals can and will play one side off against the other. Knowing this, it is quite permissible to feed false info to a neutral, hoping that he will pass it to the opposition. But sending your pdf to an uncommitted neutral is absolutely crazy.

  Richard.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:54 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] An overview on the art of the Backstab