There is however another problem which comes to light in this instance.
One which wasn't put across before.
When a nation is not being played the computer thinks the nation is
Inactive which means that you get messages when you use the Uncover Secrets
order. Most of our team had uncovered that the nation of Marketplace had
collapsed and was no longer active. When we came across them a few turns ago
these messages persuaded us to attack them rather than diverting all of the
resources we had against another nation. Now we find an inactive nation (and
possible ally if we had been told that they could still turn Free) turn
against us in the middle of our territory.
Personally I find the whole thing completely disgraceful.
Thomas Crane
Babylon Project
P.S. Mivior your time is up!. Marketplace you are next. Might be a good idea
to get a different e-mail address on this list to avoid confusion.
···
You're wrong, he's right. The nation concerned only had 12 proper turns
didn't it, so the player concerned has a right to change. (Unless of
course he joined with the encouragement of your opposition, which would
be cheating.)
Fancy letting a nation sit there for 4 turns idle without taking
advantage of it, heh, heh! You deserve what you got!
Grrrr!!!! Snr. <grrrr!!!!@squamata.in2home.co.uk> wrote
When a nation is not being played the computer thinks the nation is
Inactive which means that you get messages when you use the Uncover Secrets
order. Most of our team had uncovered that the nation of Marketplace had
collapsed and was no longer active. When we came across them a few turns ago
these messages persuaded us to attack them rather than diverting all of the
resources we had against another nation. Now we find an inactive nation (and
possible ally if we had been told that they could still turn Free) turn
against us in the middle of our territory.
Personally I find the whole thing completely disgraceful.
You're saying that you got "collapsed and no longer active" for a
nation, which then came back to life? If you are, that changes things a
lot. That would be a serious error in the program, because it's
basically telling you a lie and defeating your efforts to play
intelligently, unfairly.
If this is what happens, then the GM should not allow such nations to be
picked up.
Clint, I think you really need to look in to this one.
Short of re-programming, the only work around I can think of, would be
for the GM to send out an announcement to all players whenever an idle
nation gets picked up by a stand by.
That's not what the query is but a subsidary issue. It is relevant but not
the over-riding issue. 4 turns inactive will be detrimental to most
nations - generally they become unplayable in that situation. As for
contacting players when a nation becomes active again I am not sure about
that either. As a player we allow for players taking up nations and
becoming active again on opposing teams.
Just some thoughs.
Clint
> When a nation is not being played the computer thinks the nation is
>Inactive which means that you get messages when you use the Uncover
Secrets
>order. Most of our team had uncovered that the nation of Marketplace had
>collapsed and was no longer active. When we came across them a few turns
ago
>these messages persuaded us to attack them rather than diverting all of
the
>resources we had against another nation. Now we find an inactive nation
(and
···
>possible ally if we had been told that they could still turn Free) turn
>against us in the middle of our territory.
>
> Personally I find the whole thing completely disgraceful.
You're saying that you got "collapsed and no longer active" for a
nation, which then came back to life? If you are, that changes things a
lot. That would be a serious error in the program, because it's
basically telling you a lie and defeating your efforts to play
intelligently, unfairly.
If this is what happens, then the GM should not allow such nations to be
picked up.
Clint, I think you really need to look in to this one.
Short of re-programming, the only work around I can think of, would be
for the GM to send out an announcement to all players whenever an idle
nation gets picked up by a stand by.
You happy to run with my call on this then Thomas? I think the other points
being brought up are, although important are not the primary focus. Yes it
would be good if nations had a different form of statement depgending on how
they were dropped but that is not the essentials of the discussion here.
Clint
There is however another problem which comes to light in this
instance.
One which wasn't put across before.
When a nation is not being played the computer thinks the nation is
Inactive which means that you get messages when you use the Uncover
Secrets
order. Most of our team had uncovered that the nation of Marketplace had
collapsed and was no longer active. When we came across them a few turns
ago
these messages persuaded us to attack them rather than diverting all of
the
resources we had against another nation. Now we find an inactive nation
(and
possible ally if we had been told that they could still turn Free) turn
against us in the middle of our territory.
Personally I find the whole thing completely disgraceful.
Thomas Crane
Babylon Project
P.S. Mivior your time is up!. Marketplace you are next. Might be a good
idea
···
to get a different e-mail address on this list to avoid confusion.
>You're wrong, he's right. The nation concerned only had 12 proper turns
>didn't it, so the player concerned has a right to change. (Unless of
>course he joined with the encouragement of your opposition, which would
>be cheating.)
>
>Fancy letting a nation sit there for 4 turns idle without taking
>advantage of it, heh, heh! You deserve what you got!
>
>Regards,
>
>Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/
>
>
>Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
>To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
>http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
>
The message got by uncovers is apparently saying "is inactive AND HAS
COLLAPSED". It's just not true, is it? So if you give out one of these
nations, you should inform players in order to set things right.
4 turns inactive will be detrimental to most
nations - generally they become unplayable in that situation. As for
contacting players when a nation becomes active again I am not sure about
that either. As a player we allow for players taking up nations and
becoming active again on opposing teams.
I have mostly been ignoring this string, but (since I'm in insomniac mode, as
the time on this message may have tipped you off to ...) I went ahead and read
this.
If what I'm hearing is correct, then it's possible to get an "accurate" message
via the 585 oder that "xxxx nation has collapsed and is no longer active" but
for that to actually not be the case? If so, I have _very_serious_ issues with
that, and would say that, rather than the 12 vs 16 neutral declaration thing
(which I _do_ grasp, and _is_ important), this is by far the biggest issue
raised in this entire discussion.
Please, Clint, say it ain't so (and put me down for $20 on the Black Sox ... :).
b
Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
···
You happy to run with my call on this then Thomas? I think the other points
being brought up are, although important are not the primary focus. Yes it
would be good if nations had a different form of statement depgending on how
they were dropped but that is not the essentials of the discussion here.
Clint
> There is however another problem which comes to light in this
instance.
> One which wasn't put across before.
>
> When a nation is not being played the computer thinks the nation is
> Inactive which means that you get messages when you use the Uncover
Secrets
> order. Most of our team had uncovered that the nation of Marketplace had
> collapsed and was no longer active. When we came across them a few turns
ago
> these messages persuaded us to attack them rather than diverting all of
the
> resources we had against another nation. Now we find an inactive nation
(and
> possible ally if we had been told that they could still turn Free) turn
> against us in the middle of our territory.
>
> Personally I find the whole thing completely disgraceful.
>
> Thomas Crane
> Babylon Project
>
> P.S. Mivior your time is up!. Marketplace you are next. Might be a good
idea
> to get a different e-mail address on this list to avoid confusion.
>
> >You're wrong, he's right. The nation concerned only had 12 proper turns
> >didn't it, so the player concerned has a right to change. (Unless of
> >course he joined with the encouragement of your opposition, which would
> >be cheating.)
> >
> >Fancy letting a nation sit there for 4 turns idle without taking
> >advantage of it, heh, heh! You deserve what you got!
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/
> >
> >
> >Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> >To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> >http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
If what I'm hearing is correct, then it's possible to get an "accurate" message
via the 585 oder that "xxxx nation has collapsed and is no longer active" but
for that to actually not be the case? If so, I have _very_serious_ issues with
that, and would say that, rather than the 12 vs 16 neutral declaration thing
(which I _do_ grasp, and _is_ important), this is by far the biggest issue
raised in this entire discussion.
Sorry Ben, it is so. I think this is one of the major bugs in the game
and has to be dealt with somehow. I've been in the situation where
I've destroyed by neighbour and turned to deal with another enemy,
just to get attacked in the back by the so called "collapsed" nation.
I've also been in the situation where I dropped my position, and the
turn I got said it was out of the game and my team mates got
messages telling them it had collapsed, so they made great plans
to pick up my characters, just to discover that the nation was still
viable and after several turns could be taken over by another player.
This IS indeed a major concern. Out is out. Dead is dead. If a
nation has collapsed it can never reappear again. Harlequin has to
either: 1) Tell all players that this is a major bug and that they're
trying to solve the problem, but please ignore it in the meantime. 2)
Change the text so that is says "is not active at the moment"
ONLY. 3) Inform all players in the game that player X has been
kind enough to take over the nation Z from turn Y. 4) Never give
new life to a collapsed nation.
Also, FWIW, Option 4 is the only option I consider appropriate. To avoid
controversy, please note that I mean this to apply _only_ to a nation that is
actually "collapsed" - if a nation goes "inactive" (i.e. a player has "dropped" it
and it remains empty without technically "collapsing" - not sure what brings this
about but I suspect gold has alot todo with it …) every attempt should be made to
find a replacement. _But_, if the nation "collapses" (whether it's reported to any
other nation or not!) it should never, ever be "brought to life." I still have my
doubts about whether this has ever actually been done … perhaps the character did a
585 (or cast Perceive Secrets) and got a "false positive" (pursuant to a SprdRum, or
"bad roll" or the like)???
Clint, care to comment at this point? Trying to come up with ideas that prevent "you
lot" (Conspiracy? Where??) from looking too bad ...
> If what I'm hearing is correct, then it's possible to get an "accurate" message
> via the 585 oder that "xxxx nation has collapsed and is no longer active" but
> for that to actually not be the case? If so, I have _very_serious_ issues with
> that, and would say that, rather than the 12 vs 16 neutral declaration thing
> (which I _do_ grasp, and _is_ important), this is by far the biggest issue
> raised in this entire discussion.
Sorry Ben, it is so. I think this is one of the major bugs in the game
and has to be dealt with somehow. I've been in the situation where
I've destroyed by neighbour and turned to deal with another enemy,
just to get attacked in the back by the so called "collapsed" nation.
I've also been in the situation where I dropped my position, and the
turn I got said it was out of the game and my team mates got
messages telling them it had collapsed, so they made great plans
to pick up my characters, just to discover that the nation was still
viable and after several turns could be taken over by another player.
This IS indeed a major concern. Out is out. Dead is dead. If a
nation has collapsed it can never reappear again. Harlequin has to
either: 1) Tell all players that this is a major bug and that they're
trying to solve the problem, but please ignore it in the meantime. 2)
Change the text so that is says "is not active at the moment"
ONLY. 3) Inform all players in the game that player X has been
kind enough to take over the nation Z from turn Y. 4) Never give
new life to a collapsed nation.
Not the case - the nation has been POPed (put out of play) but it is
available for players to pick it up again. This is the way that it has
always been done.
Not sure why this should occur. For example (from my own play experience in
game23) there was a report that a nation had died. We assumed this MIGHT be
the case and a few turns later the nation attacked us. What's the problem
with that?
Clint
···
The message got by uncovers is apparently saying "is inactive AND HAS
COLLAPSED". It's just not true, is it? So if you give out one of these
nations, you should inform players in order to set things right.
Why not just take it as being "Not active at the moment?" I guess that what
players want here is
1) Active
2) Not-active but playable
3) Not-active - not playable?
as 585 reports or the like? How would 580 or failed 585s work here?
Basically this is a programming change - very hard to get but should there
be enough concern abou this minor query then I can look into that.
340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
****************************************************************
Middle Earth - Legends - Serim Ral
CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
Battle of the Planets - Exile
----- Original Message -----
From: <pontus@gustavsson.net>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Dispute resolved
> If what I'm hearing is correct, then it's possible to get an "accurate"
message
> via the 585 oder that "xxxx nation has collapsed and is no longer
active" but
> for that to actually not be the case? If so, I have _very_serious_
issues with
> that, and would say that, rather than the 12 vs 16 neutral declaration
thing
> (which I _do_ grasp, and _is_ important), this is by far the biggest
issue
> raised in this entire discussion.
Sorry Ben, it is so. I think this is one of the major bugs in the game
and has to be dealt with somehow. I've been in the situation where
I've destroyed by neighbour and turned to deal with another enemy,
just to get attacked in the back by the so called "collapsed" nation.
I've also been in the situation where I dropped my position, and the
turn I got said it was out of the game and my team mates got
messages telling them it had collapsed, so they made great plans
to pick up my characters, just to discover that the nation was still
viable and after several turns could be taken over by another player.
This IS indeed a major concern. Out is out. Dead is dead. If a
nation has collapsed it can never reappear again. Harlequin has to
either: 1) Tell all players that this is a major bug and that they're
trying to solve the problem, but please ignore it in the meantime. 2)
Change the text so that is says "is not active at the moment"
ONLY. 3) Inform all players in the game that player X has been
kind enough to take over the nation Z from turn Y. 4) Never give
new life to a collapsed nation.
You mean, if my team (let's say the free) cause another nation to go bankrupt
(let's say the DS), that DS position is _not_ eliminated from the game, and
_can_ still be picked up, it just has to be by another player? That doesn't
sound right. Please specifically address this question, yes or no.
I'm thinking that we're talking instead about the "meaning" one can assign to a
"nation has collapsed and is no longer active" message, usually "come across"
via the "Uncover Secrets" order (#585) but also I guess possible via casting the
Perceive Secrets spell. What I suggested in my earlier email was that one can
"come across" this message, and it may be "faulty" (for whatever reason,
including that _at_the_time_ that the message was generated, the position was
"inactive" - as opposed to _ELIMINATED_). These words make _ALL_ of the
difference (including their definition, use, and implications in actual game
settings). A quick "spelling out" of each word relevant to nations' "status"
(active, inactive, eliminated, dropped, picked up, "no longer active" - etc.)
would probably help sort through this mess ...
$.02 (yet again ...)
b
Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
···
Not the case - the nation has been POPed (put out of play) but it is
available for players to pick it up again. This is the way that it has
always been done.
340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
****************************************************************
Middle Earth - Legends - Serim Ral
CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
Battle of the Planets - Exile
----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Shushan" <bshushan@earthlink.net>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Dispute resolved
> I have mostly been ignoring this string, but (since I'm in insomniac mode,
as
> the time on this message may have tipped you off to ...) I went ahead and
read
> this.
>
> If what I'm hearing is correct, then it's possible to get an "accurate"
message
> via the 585 oder that "xxxx nation has collapsed and is no longer active"
but
> for that to actually not be the case? If so, I have _very_serious_ issues
with
> that, and would say that, rather than the 12 vs 16 neutral declaration
thing
> (which I _do_ grasp, and _is_ important), this is by far the biggest issue
> raised in this entire discussion.
>
> Please, Clint, say it ain't so (and put me down for $20 on the Black Sox
... :).
>
>
No bankrupt is eliminated, but (with DGE) you could skip a turn, No Special Service,
and your nation would be in economic stasis. Possibly generating an inactive
message. Then you hopefully had someone transfer you gold. A Standby possition I
understand runs special service turns and I don't know if that would generate an
inactive message. If the Standby Position does not run a special service turn I
may generate and inactive message.. Or the basis of this entire message line could
be from a spread rumor order.
Benjamin Shushan wrote:
···
You mean, if my team (let's say the free) cause another nation to go bankrupt
(let's say the DS), that DS position is _not_ eliminated from the game, and
_can_ still be picked up, it just has to be by another player? That doesn't
sound right. Please specifically address this question, yes or no.
I'm thinking that we're talking instead about the "meaning" one can assign to a
"nation has collapsed and is no longer active" message, usually "come across"
via the "Uncover Secrets" order (#585) but also I guess possible via casting the
Perceive Secrets spell. What I suggested in my earlier email was that one can
"come across" this message, and it may be "faulty" (for whatever reason,
including that _at_the_time_ that the message was generated, the position was
"inactive" - as opposed to _ELIMINATED_). These words make _ALL_ of the
difference (including their definition, use, and implications in actual game
settings). A quick "spelling out" of each word relevant to nations' "status"
(active, inactive, eliminated, dropped, picked up, "no longer active" - etc.)
would probably help sort through this mess ...
$.02 (yet again ...)
b
Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:
> Not the case - the nation has been POPed (put out of play) but it is
> available for players to pick it up again. This is the way that it has
> always been done.
>
> Clint
> ****************************************************************
> Harlequin Games Middle Earth Games
> pbm@harlequingames.comme@middleearthgames.com
> www.harlequingames.comwww.middleearthgames.com
>
> 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
> Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
> Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
> ****************************************************************
> Middle Earth - Legends - Serim Ral
> CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
> Battle of the Planets - Exile
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Benjamin Shushan" <bshushan@earthlink.net>
> To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Dispute resolved
>
> > I have mostly been ignoring this string, but (since I'm in insomniac mode,
> as
> > the time on this message may have tipped you off to ...) I went ahead and
> read
> > this.
> >
> > If what I'm hearing is correct, then it's possible to get an "accurate"
> message
> > via the 585 oder that "xxxx nation has collapsed and is no longer active"
> but
> > for that to actually not be the case? If so, I have _very_serious_ issues
> with
> > that, and would say that, rather than the 12 vs 16 neutral declaration
> thing
> > (which I _do_ grasp, and _is_ important), this is by far the biggest issue
> > raised in this entire discussion.
> >
> > Please, Clint, say it ain't so (and put me down for $20 on the Black Sox
> ... :).
> >
> >
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
You mean, if my team (let's say the free) cause another nation to go
bankrupt
(let's say the DS), that DS position is _not_ eliminated from the game,
and
_can_ still be picked up, it just has to be by another player? That
doesn't
sound right. Please specifically address this question, yes or no.
No - if a position has been elminated from play such as from losing it's
capital and no suitable back-up, tax rate over 100% then it is no longer
playable.
I'm thinking that we're talking instead about the "meaning" one can assign
to a
"nation has collapsed and is no longer active" message, usually "come
across"
via the "Uncover Secrets" order (#585) but also I guess possible via
casting the
Perceive Secrets spell. What I suggested in my earlier email was that one
can
"come across" this message, and it may be "faulty" (for whatever reason,
including that _at_the_time_ that the message was generated, the position
was
"inactive" - as opposed to _ELIMINATED_). These words make _ALL_ of the
difference (including their definition, use, and implications in actual
game
settings). A quick "spelling out" of each word relevant to nations'
"status"
(active, inactive, eliminated, dropped, picked up, "no longer active" -
etc.)
would probably help sort through this mess ...
I concur - but this would mean a programming change. I have stored this in
the to talk to GSI about.
Clint
Some don't see it an an abuse...
when you do this the character all issue no orders, making them 210
bait, you're delayed a turn in the character naming game, etc.
It was a tactic that many people just didn't know existed, if the
tactic is equally available to all players, then it's not an abuse.
I have this feeling that you folks banned it after someone saw it
used who hadn't thought of it.
Basically I think it is using something which was not intended to be put
into the game. Ie when you are about to go bankrupt then YOU GO BANKRUPT! (for emphais not intended as shouting).
Getting around that seems unsporting. Yes you are at a disadvantage on that
turn - but so much that you cannot crawl back the very next turn.
340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
****************************************************************
Middle Earth - Legends - Serim Ral
CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
Battle of the Planets - Exile
----- Original Message -----
From: <ggiacoppe@aol.com>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 12:52 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Dispute resolved
Some don't see it an an abuse...
when you do this the character all issue no orders, making them 210
bait, you're delayed a turn in the character naming game, etc.
It was a tactic that many people just didn't know existed, if the
tactic is equally available to all players, then it's not an abuse.
I have this feeling that you folks banned it after someone saw it
used who hadn't thought of it.
--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@M...>
wrote:
> Part of the reason we don't allow no-SS turns due to the abuses
descrobed
> below.
>
> Clint
>
> > No bankrupt is eliminated, but (with DGE) you could skip a turn,
No
> Special Service,
> > and your nation would be in economic stasis. Possibly generating
an
> inactive
> > message. Then you hopefully had someone transfer you gold. A
Standby
> possition I
> > understand runs special service turns and I don't know if that
would
> generate an
> > inactive message. If the Standby Position does not run a
special service
> turn I
> > may generate and inactive message.. Or the basis of this entire
message
> line could
> > be from a spread rumor order.
> >
The message got by uncovers is apparently saying "is inactive AND HAS
COLLAPSED". It's just not true, is it? So if you give out one of these
nations, you should inform players in order to set things right.
Not sure why this should occur. For example (from my own play experience in
game23) there was a report that a nation had died. We assumed this MIGHT be
the case and a few turns later the nation attacked us. What's the problem
with that?
The problem is that the statement is false. "Collapsed" suggests
permanently out of play. I had certainly always interpreted it as such
(8 years play, multiple games) and as far as I know, all of the other
chaps I play with always believed the same.
Why does it say "HAS COLLAPSED and is inactive" when it means "is
inactive"?
Most of the people joining in this thread, have spoken with some
conviction, and do not seem to consider it a "minor query".
585 statements should be in context. As far as I'm concerned, if a
nation is still viable, then it should not generate any message at all.
Why should a vulnerable nation be singled out for enemy action, when a
new player might come in 2 turns later, and revive it, thus making the
game more enjoyable? BUT when a nation is permanently eliminated, a
simple "has collapsed" message from successful 585's would be
appropriate.
Why not just take it as being "Not active at the moment?" I guess that what
players want here is
1) Active
2) Not-active but playable
3) Not-active - not playable?
as 585 reports or the like? How would 580 or failed 585s work here?
Basically this is a programming change - very hard to get but should there
be enough concern abou this minor query then I can look into that.
