Economics in ME followup

mepbmlist
#1

1650 Free.

Gold donors: Noldo, S. Gondor, Dwarves

Gold suckers: Woodmen, Eothrim, Northmen

Commodity donors: Woodmen (mounts to Eo.) N Gondor (they usually try to
run gold poor, but can buy/sell/ship commodities from a remote PC. Nmen if
they survive the onslaught.

···

-----Original Message-----
    From: Jason Bennett [mailto:jasonab@acm.org]
    Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 1:15 AM
    To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [mepbmlist] Economics in ME followup

    Hey all,

    Clint emailed me today asking about a followup to my article
on Bree on
    ME economics. Specifically, he wanted me to discuss which
nations tend
    to give gold, and which tend to need it.

    I haven't played enough nations to talk about several of
them
    intelligently, but Clint and I agreed that getting some
opinions from
    the list would be interesting.

    So, given the collective brilliance of the list members,
which nations
    (in which scenarios) tend to need gold, and which tend to be
gold
    donators? Also, which nations can be either, depending on
how they get
    played? Results will be included (and possibly quoted) in a
follow-up
    Bree article.

            jason

    --
    Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
    E pur si muove!

    Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
    To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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#2

1650 Free.

  Gold donors: Noldo, S. Gondor, Dwarves

  Gold suckers: Woodmen, Eothrim, Northmen

  Commodity donors: Woodmen (mounts to Eo.) N Gondor (they usually try to
  run gold poor, but can buy/sell/ship commodities from a remote PC. Nmen if
  they survive the onslaught.
  RD: 1650:
  Free Choosers:
  Noldo, S Gondor, N Gondor. N Gondor starts off as by far the biggest and richest nation in Middle-earth. Why it should not send some of its accummulated wealth to allies I don't know. I also don't see why it should need gold, unless its taken a hell of a battering.
  Who said Dwarves? Eh, when have you ever known a Dwarf to willingly part with gold?

  Beggars: Woodies and Northies definitely. Eothraim if they don't burn their armies up quick. Possibly Sinda too. Much depends on who gets the most camps down, and the fortunes of war.

  DS choosers: Cloud lord and Blind Sorceror. Possible QAv later in the game, if the southern neutrals go dark.

  Beggars: Witch-king & Dragon lord definitely, any of the others possibly, depending on the fortunes of war.

  Neutrals:
  Choosers: Harad definitely, possibly Easterlings & Duns if allowed to develop in peace until near the deadline for allegiance change.

  The most important single thing any nation can do to improve its economic base is name 2 or even 3 emis out of the first 4 slots and build as many camps as possible as fast as possible. The more camps you get down, the stronger your economy will be. This is vital for nations which start with a small population base (like most of Mordor). If you don't name a second emissary until turn 6 you will be lucky to get one camp out of him before the limit is reached, and chances are that you will be amongst the game's beggars instead of a chooser.

  Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Jaggard, Mick (Chicago)
  To: 'mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com'
  Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:04 PM
  Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Economics in ME followup

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jason Bennett [mailto:jasonab@acm.org]
              Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 1:15 AM
              To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [mepbmlist] Economics in ME followup

              Hey all,

              Clint emailed me today asking about a followup to my article
  on Bree on
              ME economics. Specifically, he wanted me to discuss which
  nations tend
              to give gold, and which tend to need it.

              I haven't played enough nations to talk about several of
  them
              intelligently, but Clint and I agreed that getting some
  opinions from
              the list would be interesting.

              So, given the collective brilliance of the list members,
  which nations
              (in which scenarios) tend to need gold, and which tend to be
  gold
              donators? Also, which nations can be either, depending on
  how they get
              played? Results will be included (and possibly quoted) in a
  follow-up
              Bree article.

                                      jason

              --
              Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
              E pur si muove!

              Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
              To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
              Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
              
              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              
  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

Jaggard, Mick (Chicago) wrote:

Gold suckers: Woodmen, Eothrim, Northmen

Commodity donors: Woodmen (mounts to Eo.) N Gondor (they usually try to
run gold poor, but can buy/sell/ship commodities from a remote PC. Nmen if
they survive the onslaught.

For the WM, I assume you mean sell the mounts to the EO? Or just send them?
      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

#4

Richard DEVEREUX wrote:

> RD: 1650: Free Choosers:

Always good to know that beggars can't be choosers. :slight_smile:

> Noldo, S Gondor, N Gondor. N Gondor starts off as by far the biggest
> and richest nation in Middle-earth. Why it should not send some of
> its accummulated wealth to allies I don't know. I also don't see why
> it should need gold, unless its taken a hell of a battering. Who said

I was tord on NG. On one hand, they do have an amazing base. On the other, it seems if they aren't investing it all in armies and keeping their tax base down (and loyalties high), they're wasting opportunities.

> Beggars: Woodies and Northies definitely. Eothraim if they don't
> burn their armies up quick. Possibly Sinda too. Much depends on who
> gets the most camps down, and the fortunes of war.

The elves (other than Noldo) were ones I had questions about. Anyone else have elvish opinions?

> Neutrals: Choosers: Harad definitely, possibly Easterlings & Duns if
> allowed to develop in peace until near the deadline for allegiance
> change.

Agreed. That was my basis for the gold-rich neutrals. I played 2950 Duns once and went free with over 200k gold in my treasury. Made me very popular. :slight_smile:

> The most important single thing any nation can do to improve its
> economic base is name 2 or even 3 emis out of the first 4 slots and

Couldn't agree more.

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

#5

For 2950, here is what is my typical experience:

Free gold donors:

Rangers, Noldo - great climate and terrain, minimal DS threat,
relatively little need to field armies since they're so far from Mordor.

Dwarfs - a good dwarf player will post camps with the western armies
and take advantage of the safe Iron Hills turf. Can either ship a lot
of gold or spend cash on moving slow armies a long ways to the action.

S Gondor - beautiful position and a good early donor. In the mid to
late game DS gold thieves can disrupt shipments.

Free gold sinks:

Silvans, Woodmen, Rohan, North Gondor. All are cursed with the
ability to raise more troops than they can support. NGondor usually
doesn't get many camps and ends up around turn 10 with a small base,
few characters, and lots of problems. The Silvans are most likely to
go broke, especially in winter, unless they are properly run as a free
agent nation. Rohan usually goes belly up if either of the nearby
neuts goes dark and can be sacked early if the DS decide to do so.
The woodies are...well, the woodmen.

Either way:
Northmen, Sinda. Both have the ability to build lots of camps and be
powerful nations. The Sinda can run into trouble if Lorien gets
burned early, and the Northmen can be eliminated if the Rhun go dark
or the DS decide it's worth going there instead of Mirkwood.

Dark donors:

Cloud Lord, Quiet Avenger, Blind Sorceror. Decent emmys, safe board
positions, and usually not much ability or need for big armies.

Dark gold sinks:

Witch-King, Dragon Lord, Long Rider. Smaller and weaker than their
1650 cousins. The WK is the most likely DS nation to go broke, since
the dragon lord is able to raise fewer troops and is usually screaming
for help. The LR usually gets a late start on camping, and the entire
2950 economy is really based on new camps.

Either way: Dog Lord, Ice King, Fire King, Dark Lts. All have the
ability to build up nice economies, and all have the potential to get
bogged down with high costs. Of the lot the Dog Lord and Dark Lts.
are the most likely to be strong economies and the IK/FK are the most
likely to need help.

Neutrals:

Gold donors:
Free Duns, WW ; dark Corsairs, Khand. Location, location, location.

Gold sinks:
Dark Duns, WW; free Khand. The exception is when both the Duns and
WW go dark - this effectively ensures a dark victory. If one goes
dark the freeps can usually drive them out of their homeland. A free
Khand can be dismantled with a combination of character and military
actions.

Universal gold sink:

Rhun. Only a combination of exceptional play by the Rhun and poor
play by their opponents can keep this nation out of the red. A dark
Rhun is really vulnerable (but can usually KO the Northmen), while the
Khand are frequently strong enough to drive both the Rhun and Northmen
out of the Sea of Rhun by themselves if the Rhun are free. And, of
course, you lose half of your starting pops the second you declare.

cheers,

Marc

#6

Nice bit Marc. I think I'll want the Rhun next 2950 I play,
just let me join your team, 'kay?

Brad

···

--- marc_pinsonneault <pinsonneault.1@osu.edu> wrote:

For 2950, here is what is my typical experience:

Free gold donors:

Rangers, Noldo - great climate and terrain, minimal DS threat,
relatively little need to field armies since they're so far from
Mordor.

Dwarfs - a good dwarf player will post camps with the western armies
and take advantage of the safe Iron Hills turf. Can either ship a
lot
of gold or spend cash on moving slow armies a long ways to the
action.

S Gondor - beautiful position and a good early donor. In the mid to
late game DS gold thieves can disrupt shipments.

Free gold sinks:

Silvans, Woodmen, Rohan, North Gondor. All are cursed with the
ability to raise more troops than they can support. NGondor usually
doesn't get many camps and ends up around turn 10 with a small base,
few characters, and lots of problems. The Silvans are most likely to
go broke, especially in winter, unless they are properly run as a
free
agent nation. Rohan usually goes belly up if either of the nearby
neuts goes dark and can be sacked early if the DS decide to do so.
The woodies are...well, the woodmen.

Either way:
Northmen, Sinda. Both have the ability to build lots of camps and be
powerful nations. The Sinda can run into trouble if Lorien gets
burned early, and the Northmen can be eliminated if the Rhun go dark
or the DS decide it's worth going there instead of Mirkwood.

Dark donors:

Cloud Lord, Quiet Avenger, Blind Sorceror. Decent emmys, safe board
positions, and usually not much ability or need for big armies.

Dark gold sinks:

Witch-King, Dragon Lord, Long Rider. Smaller and weaker than their
1650 cousins. The WK is the most likely DS nation to go broke, since
the dragon lord is able to raise fewer troops and is usually
screaming
for help. The LR usually gets a late start on camping, and the
entire
2950 economy is really based on new camps.

Either way: Dog Lord, Ice King, Fire King, Dark Lts. All have the
ability to build up nice economies, and all have the potential to get
bogged down with high costs. Of the lot the Dog Lord and Dark Lts.
are the most likely to be strong economies and the IK/FK are the most
likely to need help.

Neutrals:

Gold donors:
Free Duns, WW ; dark Corsairs, Khand. Location, location, location.

Gold sinks:
Dark Duns, WW; free Khand. The exception is when both the Duns and
WW go dark - this effectively ensures a dark victory. If one goes
dark the freeps can usually drive them out of their homeland. A free
Khand can be dismantled with a combination of character and military
actions.

Universal gold sink:

Rhun. Only a combination of exceptional play by the Rhun and poor
play by their opponents can keep this nation out of the red. A dark
Rhun is really vulnerable (but can usually KO the Northmen), while
the
Khand are frequently strong enough to drive both the Rhun and
Northmen
out of the Sea of Rhun by themselves if the Rhun are free. And, of
course, you lose half of your starting pops the second you declare.

cheers,

Marc

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#7

marc_pinsonneault wrote:

For 2950, here is what is my typical experience:

Great, thanks for the detail. The Sinda seem to be one of the trickiset 2950 nations to play, especially if the DS have RPC to start.

    jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

#8

--- In mepbmlist@y..., Jason Bennett <jasonab@a...> wrote:

marc_pinsonneault wrote:
> For 2950, here is what is my typical experience:

Great, thanks for the detail. The Sinda seem to be one of the trickiset
2950 nations to play, especially if the DS have RPC to start.

    jason

The DS have a brief window at the start of the game where they can
make trouble for one front line nation: Rohan, Sinda, or the Northmen.
Of the three, a successful hit on the Sinda is the most deadly to the
free
(The Rohan hit is a good way to swing the WW or Duns to your side,
however.) The Sinda can be a challenge; I'd actually put Rohan as a
tougher nation to play because it is so vulnerable to assault both
from Dog Lord cav and the neutrals in the area.

All of these moves can be countered to varying degrees, but it takes
good co-ordination. Between the Sinda and Rohan someone has to shut
down the flow of DS troops out of Mordor while the Woodmen (plus maybe
the Silvans and Northmen) suppress the dragon lord armies in Mirkwood.
You also need competent Noldo/Ranger play to neutralize the WK in
2006 and eventually 2305. If any of these pieces fall apart the DS
can really hammer the free in a way that is very difficult to overcome.

The outcome of the game seems to be pretty directly tied to what
happens in Mirkwood. If the free have cleared in by turn 10 it is
usually a runaway freep victory, while if the DS knock one or more
Mirkwood-area nations out in the early game it is usually a decisive
DS win.

Marc