I'm looking for a standard 12v12 2950 game (partially as our GM team is
probably going to be playing this soon).
Strongest Neutral nations 21,25,24,23,22 in my opinion in a 12v12 game (ie
one Neutral gone).
Pretty much I think that if both White Wizard (WW) or Dunlendings (DunL) are
played they have to be on the same side (DS or FP). Or one can be played
and that can be FP (otherwise surrounded and quickly dies).
That leaves the other Neutrals - Rhun Easterlings (RE) if played then as FP
pretty clearly (otherwise it's a boring battle in the Northmen homeland I
reckon with no chance for any particular innovative or fun play).
So
Option 1) DunL/WW DS, KE or Cor & RE FP (Cor/RE I slightly favour for
balance/territory issues).
Option 2) DunL/WW FP, Cor/KE DS (least favourite - seems to favour DS
economy somewhat)
Option 3) DunL or WW (the other Gap of Rohan nation removed) FP & RE, Cor/KE
DS
Other options and opinions welcome. Other than Saruman WW is a pretty boring
nation so I think the agents @40 option for FP as the DunL makes Option 3)
my favourite. (I'd be happy playing DS or FP with any of these choices I
think on first look).
Opinions welcome? Personally not a big fan of the choose 1st and 4th for
one team, 2nd and 3rd for the second team - makes the game more uneven and
random if one team chooses something unsound/unexpected but that's my player
opinion. Part of the beauty of the game is that the game is known at game
set-up and a strategy fixed for what you know. (Note ME Games is prepared
to support any format but if we can get a fair format as our standard
variant that will help clear up some confusion).
Sorry for clarity - I am interested in the debate on which is a fair distribution for a 12v12 - looks like we have opposition for it.
Clint (player)
···
At 02:05 17/02/04, you wrote:
I'm looking for a standard 12v12 2950 game (partially as our GM team is
probably going to be playing this soon).
Strongest Neutral nations 21,25,24,23,22 in my opinion in a 12v12 game (ie
one Neutral gone).
Pretty much I think that if both White Wizard (WW) or Dunlendings (DunL) are
played they have to be on the same side (DS or FP). Or one can be played
and that can be FP (otherwise surrounded and quickly dies).
That leaves the other Neutrals - Rhun Easterlings (RE) if played then as FP
pretty clearly (otherwise it's a boring battle in the Northmen homeland I
reckon with no chance for any particular innovative or fun play).
So
Option 1) DunL/WW DS, KE or Cor & RE FP (Cor/RE I slightly favour for
balance/territory issues).
Option 2) DunL/WW FP, Cor/KE DS (least favourite - seems to favour DS
economy somewhat)
Option 3) DunL or WW (the other Gap of Rohan nation removed) FP & RE, Cor/KE
DS
Other options and opinions welcome. Other than Saruman WW is a pretty boring
nation so I think the agents @40 option for FP as the DunL makes Option 3)
my favourite. (I'd be happy playing DS or FP with any of these choices I
think on first look).
Opinions welcome? Personally not a big fan of the choose 1st and 4th for
one team, 2nd and 3rd for the second team - makes the game more uneven and
random if one team chooses something unsound/unexpected but that's my player
opinion. Part of the beauty of the game is that the game is known at game
set-up and a strategy fixed for what you know. (Note ME Games is prepared
to support any format but if we can get a fair format as our standard
variant that will help clear up some confusion).
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$.02 from across the Pond ... (I happened to be thinking about the same thing just last night... go figure)
RE are _so_ dramatically inferior to the other 4 nations in terms of character set and strategic viability, they've got to be the "casualty." That leads to a "natural" progression of CO/KE as DS, and DU/WW as FP. I happen not to mind this. And, for those seeking a balanced game, this is not necessarily "unbalanced" ... DU are an agent power, and WW are an emmy power, plus each can provide substantial military impact. Yes, this more or less secures Khand as a campground (pun intended) for the DS. But it also more or less locks up everything West of the Misties for the FP. And there's plenty of "perma-mild" camping hexes for them (similar to the "always-hot" hexes in Khand). For those seeking more "unpredictability", I'd suggest either play FA, or get more creative with what you do with your nations! Yes, the KE/CO DS - WW/DU setup would be somewhat more "predictable," but not nearly so much as 1650 (despite the fact that the DS have two Angmar nations - if the FP are committed, the WK and RH _will_ be booted out of Angmar in 1650). in 2950, the addition of a stealthy elven nation (Sylvan in lieu of EO) and a significantly stronger starting character set make 2950 much more even than 1650 (evenly matched teams in 1650 will almost always result in a DS victory, barring a _lot_ of "pure" luck for the FP).
In summary, the prospect of a more "competitive" Rhun/Rhovanion campaign (which can be quite competitive even without a free RE) doesn't offset the weakness of the position. The FP still have a character disadvantage in 2950, it's just a lot smaller at game-start, and less (tho' substantial) over the "long term." Providing them additional agent and emmy support tends to enhance this game-start evenness, and both positions are strategic "safe houses" as FP.
Sorry, that was more like $2.00. Typial Yank ... ? Now, about world peace ... JK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
b
ME Games Ltd wrote:
···
I'm looking for a standard 12v12 2950 game (partially as our GM team is
probably going to be playing this soon).
Strongest Neutral nations 21,25,24,23,22 in my opinion in a 12v12 game (ie
one Neutral gone).
Pretty much I think that if both White Wizard (WW) or Dunlendings (DunL) are
played they have to be on the same side (DS or FP). Or one can be played
and that can be FP (otherwise surrounded and quickly dies).
That leaves the other Neutrals - Rhun Easterlings (RE) if played then as FP
pretty clearly (otherwise it's a boring battle in the Northmen homeland I
reckon with no chance for any particular innovative or fun play).
So
Option 1) DunL/WW DS, KE or Cor & RE FP (Cor/RE I slightly favour for
balance/territory issues).
Option 2) DunL/WW FP, Cor/KE DS (least favourite - seems to favour DS
economy somewhat)
Option 3) DunL or WW (the other Gap of Rohan nation removed) FP & RE, Cor/KE
DS
Other options and opinions welcome. Other than Saruman WW is a pretty boring
nation so I think the agents @40 option for FP as the DunL makes Option 3)
my favourite. (I'd be happy playing DS or FP with any of these choices I
think on first look).
Opinions welcome? Personally not a big fan of the choose 1st and 4th for
one team, 2nd and 3rd for the second team - makes the game more uneven and
random if one team chooses something unsound/unexpected but that's my player
opinion. Part of the beauty of the game is that the game is known at game
set-up and a strategy fixed for what you know. (Note ME Games is prepared
to support any format but if we can get a fair format as our standard
variant that will help clear up some confusion).
I like option 3 best, though it does give the DS an economic edge.
Keep the Corsairs DS to keep the naval war interesting. Agree with
your point about the strengths of Duns vs. WW, but if the WW goes away
what happens to Saruman? Though it is only one character, that's a
pretty compelling one. And the other "named" characters are pretty
nice from a role-playing point of view.
What about WW+Dun FP with Cors+KE DS?
Brian
I'm looking for a standard 12v12 2950 game (partially as our GM team is
probably going to be playing this soon).
Strongest Neutral nations 21,25,24,23,22 in my opinion in a 12v12
game (ie
one Neutral gone).
Pretty much I think that if both White Wizard (WW) or Dunlendings
(DunL) are
played they have to be on the same side (DS or FP). Or one can be
played
and that can be FP (otherwise surrounded and quickly dies).
That leaves the other Neutrals - Rhun Easterlings (RE) if played
then as FP
pretty clearly (otherwise it's a boring battle in the Northmen
homeland I
reckon with no chance for any particular innovative or fun play).
So
Option 1) DunL/WW DS, KE or Cor & RE FP (Cor/RE I slightly favour for
balance/territory issues).
Option 2) DunL/WW FP, Cor/KE DS (least favourite - seems to favour DS
economy somewhat)
Option 3) DunL or WW (the other Gap of Rohan nation removed) FP &
RE, Cor/KE
DS
Other options and opinions welcome. Other than Saruman WW is a
pretty boring
nation so I think the agents @40 option for FP as the DunL makes
Option 3)
my favourite. (I'd be happy playing DS or FP with any of these
choices I
think on first look).
Opinions welcome? Personally not a big fan of the choose 1st and
4th for
one team, 2nd and 3rd for the second team - makes the game more
uneven and
random if one team chooses something unsound/unexpected but that's
my player
opinion. Part of the beauty of the game is that the game is known
at game
set-up and a strategy fixed for what you know. (Note ME Games is
I like option 3 best, though it does give the DS an economic edge.
Keep the Corsairs DS to keep the naval war interesting. Agree with
your point about the strengths of Duns vs. WW, but if the WW goes away
what happens to Saruman? Though it is only one character, that's a
pretty compelling one. And the other "named" characters are pretty
nice from a role-playing point of view.
What about WW+Dun FP with Cors+KE DS?
Problem as you point out the economics of the DS is majorly enhanced then. Saruman just "dies"... More interested in a balanced set-up...
> Option 3) DunL or WW (the other Gap of Rohan nation removed) FP &
RE, Cor/KE
Ben why is Du/WW DS not a viable alternative? RE/(KE or Cor) FP then.
I agree with Brian. Making Cors FP puts a complete FP lock on the sea and
the QA may as well scuttle her ships turn 1. Tons of trouble await the
Morgul vale when both the SG and Cors fleets show up with tons of troops.
Taking down the bridge won't stop that from happening! Not much of anything
can stop it from happening. IMO
Russ
···
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Mason" <elentirmo@mindspring.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:19 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Fair distribution for Grudge 2950; ie 12v12
preligned Neutrals
I like option 3 best, though it does give the DS an economic edge.
Keep the Corsairs DS to keep the naval war interesting. Agree with
your point about the strengths of Duns vs. WW, but if the WW goes away
what happens to Saruman? Though it is only one character, that's a
pretty compelling one. And the other "named" characters are pretty
nice from a role-playing point of view.
What about WW+Dun FP with Cors+KE DS?
Brian
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "ME Games Ltd" <me@M...> wrote:
> I'm looking for a standard 12v12 2950 game (partially as our GM team is
> probably going to be playing this soon).
>
> Strongest Neutral nations 21,25,24,23,22 in my opinion in a 12v12
game (ie
> one Neutral gone).
>
> Pretty much I think that if both White Wizard (WW) or Dunlendings
(DunL) are
> played they have to be on the same side (DS or FP). Or one can be
played
> and that can be FP (otherwise surrounded and quickly dies).
>
> That leaves the other Neutrals - Rhun Easterlings (RE) if played
then as FP
> pretty clearly (otherwise it's a boring battle in the Northmen
homeland I
> reckon with no chance for any particular innovative or fun play).
>
> So
> Option 1) DunL/WW DS, KE or Cor & RE FP (Cor/RE I slightly favour for
> balance/territory issues).
> Option 2) DunL/WW FP, Cor/KE DS (least favourite - seems to favour DS
> economy somewhat)
> Option 3) DunL or WW (the other Gap of Rohan nation removed) FP &
RE, Cor/KE
> DS
>
> Other options and opinions welcome. Other than Saruman WW is a
pretty boring
> nation so I think the agents @40 option for FP as the DunL makes
Option 3)
> my favourite. (I'd be happy playing DS or FP with any of these
choices I
> think on first look).
>
> Opinions welcome? Personally not a big fan of the choose 1st and
4th for
> one team, 2nd and 3rd for the second team - makes the game more
uneven and
> random if one team chooses something unsound/unexpected but that's
my player
> opinion. Part of the beauty of the game is that the game is known
at game
> set-up and a strategy fixed for what you know. (Note ME Games is
prepared
> to support any format but if we can get a fair format as our standard
> variant that will help clear up some confusion).
>
> Clint (player and GM)
We've been playing a game like that, and it hasn't happened --
Corsairs have been busy fighting the QA, and SG has been launching
a pre-emptive strike against the Duns. WW/Duns both in DS service
really makes a difference in how much the FP can afford to send to
Ithilien (since Rohan is fighting for its life and the Duns can
attack the usually-not-in-play Western Gondor, plus the Rangers
are diverted from the WK...)
Then again, maybe our opponents need some lessons in careful play.
Beorn's challenge of Lomaw this turn would certainly suggest that
Tony Z
···
On Tue, Feb 17, 2004 at 01:44:35PM -0500, R.K.Floyd wrote:
I agree with Brian. Making Cors FP puts a complete FP lock on the sea and
the QA may as well scuttle her ships turn 1. Tons of trouble await the
Morgul vale when both the SG and Cors fleets show up with tons of troops.
Taking down the bridge won't stop that from happening! Not much of anything
can stop it from happening. IMO
--
"Pay no attention to what the critics say; there has never been set up
a statue in honor of a critic."
- Jean Sibelius
> I agree with Brian. Making Cors FP puts a
complete FP lock on the sea and
> the QA may as well scuttle her ships turn 1. Tons
of trouble await the
> Morgul vale when both the SG and Cors fleets show
up with tons of troops.
> Taking down the bridge won't stop that from
happening! Not much of anything
> can stop it from happening. IMO
We've been playing a game like that, and it hasn't
happened --
Tony, 234 is a WoTR, not normal 2950. Just because my
QA is kicking the Corsair's tale in a WotR game (3
towns down, more to go) does not mean it could happen
in a normal game.
Then again, maybe our opponents need some lessons in
careful play.
Beorn's challenge of Lomaw this turn would certainly
suggest that
Tony Z
Now, now Tony. I remember Mark throwing Galadriel
into the mouth of a dragon resulting in her death, and
I once threw a Dwarven commander at a dragon and died.
Not everyone can be as sucessful as you Sauraman.
Darrell Shimel
···
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Too _much_ "Chaos." For the sake of "making things more 'interesting'"
you'd be making them unstable. To wit ...
DS are quite vulnerable militarily. It's allready hard enough to defend
Ithil, Morannon, and the "Back Door" from a good, coordinated freep
assault (yes, I inherently think of the Free People as "freeps" - I'd
like to think because I've simply played more as a DS, rather than any
"natural affinity" ... ). With additional military threats coming
from due south and southwest, the DS would be pratically untenable (this
assumes you buy in to the "Festung Mordor" doctrine, which I do). Also,
CO all of a sudden has _very_ limited options for his navy. Why do you
think the CO go DS so much in 2950? Still a nice position, but a major
element diminished significantly.
b (moderator-in-his-own-mind)
ME Games Ltd wrote:
I like option 3 best, though it does give the DS an economic edge.
Keep the Corsairs DS to keep the naval war interesting. Agree with
your point about the strengths of Duns vs. WW, but if the WW goes away
what happens to Saruman? Though it is only one character, that's a
pretty compelling one. And the other "named" characters are pretty
nice from a role-playing point of view.
What about WW+Dun FP with Cors+KE DS?
Problem as you point out the economics of the DS is majorly enhanced
then. Saruman just "dies"... More interested in a balanced set-up...
Option 3) DunL or WW (the other Gap of Rohan nation removed) FP &
RE, Cor/KE
Ben why is Du/WW DS not a viable alternative? RE/(KE or Cor) FP then.
Too _much_ "Chaos." For the sake of "making things more 'interesting'"
you'd be making them unstable. To wit ...
>Ben why is Du/WW DS not a viable alternative? RE/(KE or Cor) FP then.
