FAS 41 and some new ideas

General
#1

Presently taking a break from doing FAS 41 set-ups and had a thought - what about new Races in 1000? (Maybe a KS thing as well for future).

Hobbits - gain extra points for scouting/Agenty things - low command/Mage rank
Ents - good Command, low Pop centres - hidden for free, Start with less characters?
Beornings -
Trolls (evil) - Higher character count at start
Presently Non-human but what about Orcs?

Any other thoughts? And what would be their SNAs and special Racial bonuses/Restrictions?

Maybe some new SNAs to go with them would be interesting as well.

#2

Giving free SNA’s sounds easy to implement. Giving the +20 recon bonus to Hobbits and perhaps the Increased chance for challenge rank bonus to Trolls sounds good. Although especially the Hobbits would require some clear downsides.

A lower cap for characters would be a clear downside but perhaps hard to get right.

#3

Well, since you asked. :smiley:

Now that FA is on the PC platform there is a chance to spice it up a bit. The new Champion rules are a welcome addition. Some other easy changes that would spice it up:

[ul]
[li]Introducing Curses artifacts into FA would be easy, fun and invigorate Mages. A very simple change.[/li][li]Decreasing the cost of ships in gold and timber. Making them 500 timber each base cost would spice up the naval game. Elves could go nuts.[/li][li]Changing the cost of the various SNA’s or artifacts would be trivial. ConjMo could be 10k instead of 8k and starting artifacts 1k each with max of 6 for example. This might change up how often people pick the same SNA’s over and over again.[/li][li]Introducing some army encounters would be fun - Ogres, Giants, Spiders, Mumakil could join armies. All FA has now is Ents and Balrogs (AFAIK), so it’s just a matter of defining the new encounters.[/li][/ul]

Along the lines of more complex changes that would requires a bit of programming:

[ul]
[li]Addressing the troop type issue would be very welcome. MA, Archers, LI & LC are almost never used. Multiple ways to do this, but some easy fixes:[/li][/ul]
- Increase the # of troops you can recruit per popcen size for these kind of troops
- Make LC and LI only require .5 metal for weapons/armor for each troop
- Give archers a defensive bonus when fighting on their own fortified popcen (akin to a defensive combat spell)
- Increase the terrain bonuses to make light troops more effective in rough/swamp/forest/mountain
- Decrease movement costs for armies composed of all light troops in rough/swamp/forest/mountain

[ul]
[li]I’ve also wanted to add in new special abilities for artifacts. Some ideas:[/li][/ul]
- Increase character movement range (like Long Stride, but regardless of Mage Rank)
- Grant bonuses for specific orders like +20 to Threaten, +40 to Guard Character, or +10 loyalty on Influence Own
- Grant bonus for evasive army/navy movement

[ul]
[li]Additional spells and mage abilities would be fun.[/li][/ul]
- A spell that boosts evasive army/navy movement odds
- A spell that increases threaten odds
- A spell that destroys enemy fortifications like War Machines
- A spell that gives a guard bonus, or makes characters harder to scout
- Allow a mage to cast both an offensive and defensive combat spell per combat
- Allow Prentice and Research Spell at Friendly allies popcens.

Anyway, there are tons of things that could be added to the game to spice it up if you guys are in a position to try them. :smiley:

#4

Curse artifacts for FA sound like fun and could indeed add to the allure of mages as a character class. Perhaps capping it to to average spell (I forgot the name) where you need to be in the same hex instead of the hard spell because you don’t know the starting names of characters or let alone the heavy hitter mages who’d be doing all the cursing.

#5

The things Adam proposed all look nice, but some of them are well into a Version 2.0, for which there are tons of ideas already.
First Thing that Comes to my mind is bonuses for troop types to reflect racial strengths. HI for Dwarves, Archers for Elves, MA for non-human.
Implementing Ents as a race IMHO would strive too far from Tolkiens work - there are so few around that they couldn’t realistically recruit thousands of troops.

What about recruitable NPCs like in KS?

#6

I would really like to see more variety it comes to troop types, so those racial bonuses would be quite nice. (Although I am certain MA would still not be a factor.)

#7

Yep. Many of us would like to see the light troop rules changed to widen the army options so that the “right army in the right conditions” wins, not simply the largest mass of HI or HC.

I’m afraid racial and terrain bonuses are not enough to make a difference. There are 4 reasons:

[ul]
[li]They don’t make a big enough difference in the combat algorithm. Nation Climate & Terrain Modifiers are averaged in with Command Rank and Army Morale to come up with an overall Average Army Modifier. Troop Terrain Modifier is averaged in with Troop Training, Weapon and Tactic Modifiers to make Average Troop Modifier. So these modifiers are watered down as they’re blended in with the other variables. This is unlike Armor Rank - which is a straight boost to con, or even Relations and the Tactic v Tactic modifier which each pull more weight.
[/li][li]
[/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]Character orders, and popcen recruiting potential are both scarce resources players maximize the str/con they can recruit per order/turn. Who has the luxury to recruit up 2800 LI, when you can crank out 1600 HI for less effort and crush the LI army?
[/li][li]
[/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]1 unit of metal creates twice the extra con on a heavy unit vs a light unit. Putting that LI in steel gains 3 con each, but armoring a HI gains 6 con. Same unit of steel, but twice the bump.
[/li][li]
[/li][/ul]

[ul]
[li]Heavy and light troop types consume the same amount of food per troop, so you can move twice the con/str per unit of food with heavy vs light troops. Makes a big difference when trying to scale a mountain hex.
[/li][li]
[/li][/ul]

Once in a while it makes sense to recruit up a few light troops - to change odds on overruns, to appear stronger than you are in recons, or LC for a cheap camp busting army. But in practice the game comes down to HI and HC for the reasons mentioned above.

It would be great if you could successfully plot a strategy to trap your enemies’ HC army in a forest hex to decimate them with your nimble LI and AR - but in practice it never happens.

In short, I believe it will take more than tinkering with racial and terrain bonuses to make using light troop types successful. I think the food problem can be ignored, and maybe even the armor problem, but not the fact that you simply can’t recruit enough con fast enough to win battles with light troops. :eek:

#8

Great idea and the code already exists in KS - akin to the Champion rules. I’d love to see this in FA.

#9

Again, I can only agree to what Adam says. Small changes won’t achieve much. The main problem is that a basic redesign of troop values will greatly affect the game balance, so these changes are difficult and need a lot of playtesting. I don’t see that happening soon.

BTW it never made sense to me how infantry with just wooden sticks - and that’s how about 80% of the HI are recruited IMO – can be “heavy”. Same with HC.
A different approach could be the following: Have only one base troop type for infantry and cavalry. Increase the factor of equipment a bit, and make one unit of metal be enough for both weapons AND armor. Then you could have unequipped troops shown as MA/Scouts, up to BR equipment as LI/LC and ST equipped as HI/HC. Racial bonuses could fit in nicely, such as Dwarven infantry automatically comes with ST equipment, same with Elven archers etc.

As to the NPCs, they would probably be easiest to implement, but require some work because in FA, all of the Nazgul are gone and also many of the FP heroes. I would tune them down a bit and remove SNAs, since in KS they are real game brakers. Let them be powerful characters that come with an artefact or two.

#10

What about:

  • An army made up of only light infantry, archers and MA has a small bonus to movement. Maybe +2 movement points.
  • A combined arms bonus, say +5% or +10% strength for each type of unit in the army. For small armies you’d still recruit just HI but the bigger your army gets, the more sense it would make to recruit other troop types. Even MA would have a role in a big enough army. This would make cavalry less useful (compared to infantry) but not by much.
#11

This whole thread smacks of conversations over 10 years ago…anyone remember Laurence Tilley’s website dedicated to the 2nd Edition of MEPBM? There was issues around characters moving 12 hexes regardless of terrain, but one could teleport 10,000 Timber 45 hexes via a single non-skill misc order…??

I’ve always remembered the term “wing commander” whereby Coms could have a specialty and if present as sub commanders in an army would be considered to lead this or that particular troop type.

There was also a consideration around Com rank and tactics - a 30 commander would run combat within the current rules. Every 10 points on Command rank would cause the algorithm to choose a different tactic for the next more numerous troops type. So my o-o-1200-600-300-300 would likely Flank with a 30 com, but a 40 com would have the o-o-1200-0-300-300 issue Flank, while the 600 LI would HR. A 50 com would Flank with the HI, HR with the LI, Ambush with the AR as the next most powerful troop type (by base str) and then the MA would be rolled into Flank. 60 com would have each troops type expressing themselves in their most effective manner. Give me an army with all 6 troop types and a c80 would have each of the attacking as if they were separate armies issuing their best tactic…

Elven archers get a “first shot” to kill the enemy and recalculate their strength prior to combat even starting, etc. Racial Str and Con bonuses, broader terrain modifiers, dramatic affects on morale based on # hexes from “Home”, etc.

Pandora’s can of worms, in many aspects, it is. But, I’d be happy to volunteer to run 2 nations for free in a play test environment… :slight_smile:

Brad

#12

Some good stuff and we now have the resources to start pushing this. Personally playing with the troops without a game engine to see it I don’t see much point without information to use to counter troop deployment.

SNAs I’d love to see some more ideas for this as this is relatively simple to code.

Encounters - well yes I’m hoping to bring out a new version of the code where players can create their own encounters that we can simply slot into a game this year.

Curse item for FAS - yes - but our first port of call is a 412 spell that can detect the various items in the game as the Artefact hunt in FAS is very poor compared with other games. Cursing would change the game a lot - we’d have to increase the cost of Mages then I think. Keep them coming guys

#13

I would like to see a few Artie’s that give non-mages the ability to cast a spell while actively possessed. Perhaps a healing spell, movement spell, or something similar.

#14

Yep - this turf has been chewed over for years. It’s a testament to the game that we still like to think about it. :slight_smile:

Lawrence’s site describing his version of MEPBM-MarkII is still up by the way: http://www.lgtilley.co.uk/2nded.htm

J.Abbot - I’ve always wanted to see artifacts allow non-mages special powers like healing, movement, etc. Orders 935 - Use Scrying Artifact, and 945 - Use Hiding Artifact, show how the code handles these exceptions - pretty clunky. So would probably take an additional order.

Clint - on curse artifacts in FA, it would still be a very long road to build up a curse squad given that artifact numbers and special powers are randomized. You’d have to hit on a curses artifact with a lucky 412 order, so unlike in 1650, it would be pretty hard to collect multiple curses artifacts to crank up a squad quickly.

Also, I didn’t understand what you meant on the Research Artifact spell. Could you explain? An easy fix to the FA artifact scarcity might be to simply publish a number of random artifact numbers at game start - say 50 or so. Doesn’t have to be the entire list, but a selection to fight over would be fun. I also think dropping the price at set-up would put more artifacts into play.

Cheers!

#15

I guess what Clint means is that the number of artefacts researched by one casting of 412 is increased, so that you get five results instead of 1. This would speed up things considerably. It would be still a Long shot compared to 1650, because the greatest impediment would be to equip all mages with artefacts to boost the casting ranks since curses usually Comes with mediocre casting Chance even for 60+ mages.

#16

The plan is that for every 10 Mage rank you get an extra 412 (research artifact) report.

So a 40 rank mage could do

940 412 1,2,3,4.

a 100 rank mage could do
940 412 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 for example. I think for games like FAS and KS it would improve the game play and add in some of the fun of the hunt for artefacts that is generally missing in these games unlike in 1650/2950 where they’re a key part of the game.

#17
  • Light cavalry would be faster than heavy cavalry
  • Infantry and cavalry would not be heavy unless they wear bronze or steel (recruiting requirement)
  • If using Defend order archers would get a free attack round (resolved before normal battle)

So mostly changes to troop types. At the moment only hit points seem to matter. Steel armour is so much more cost-effective than giving your men proper weapons.

EDIT: Some rock-paper-scissors added to combat would be high on my list.