Flame?

threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com writes:

--- "Laurence G. Tilley" <lgtilley@morespeed.net>
wrote:
>>My hunch is that part of the problem is (IMHO) PRS.
>
>Nope. That's exactly what the "crazed activist"
>wants everyone to believe
>though.

How could that not be a flame? I thought this list
was moderated to prevent flames. I don't see how
"crazed activist" can be considered anything but a
flame.

I know I missed the original emails, so I'm curious if there was any
identifier as to who the "crazed activist" is supposed to be? After all, if everyone
("activist" included) knows who is being referred to as "the crazed activist,"
then we should pay some heed to the theory that "if the shoe fits ..."

- Dilip

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

>At 01:07 12/05/2004, habanero_holt wrote:

The moderator replied to Darrells concern with "please no more" and yet we
had 2 (3?) more, and THIS time, Personal "attacks" of a sort come out of
this issue. I know that Darrell is mostly playing devil's advocate with
this issue as he get's more of a chuckle out of these kinds of barbs than he
get's genuinely upset. But it brings into question the value of moderation.
If a general (albeit subtle) statement receives a warning but more pointed
and direct "assaults" slip through, where's the consistency? What's the
standard?

IMHO Clint is doing and excellent job in so many other areas of concern to
myself, who likes to play this game, that neither he nor the company really
should have to take any time out of their primary focus to deal with these
types of (trivial) moral dilemnas.

Brad Brunet

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <dilipdavid@aol.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 10:10 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Flame?

threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com writes:

> --- "Laurence G. Tilley" <lgtilley@morespeed.net>
> wrote:
> >At 01:07 12/05/2004, habanero_holt wrote:
> >>My hunch is that part of the problem is (IMHO) PRS.
> >
> >Nope. That's exactly what the "crazed activist"
> >wants everyone to believe
> >though.
>
> How could that not be a flame? I thought this list
> was moderated to prevent flames. I don't see how
> "crazed activist" can be considered anything but a
> flame.

I know I missed the original emails, so I'm curious if there was any
identifier as to who the "crazed activist" is supposed to be? After all,

if everyone

("activist" included) knows who is being referred to as "the crazed

activist,"

then we should pay some heed to the theory that "if the shoe fits ..."

- Dilip

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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If a general (albeit subtle) statement receives a warning but more pointed
and direct "assaults" slip through, where's the consistency? What's the
standard?

Generally mine and my perception of what players find acceptable/want... :slight_smile: What do I base that on - just general experience of running games for years now.

IMHO Clint is doing and excellent job in so many other areas of concern to
myself, who likes to play this game, that neither he nor the company really
should have to take any time out of their primary focus to deal with these
types of (trivial) moral dilemnas.

Part of the problem is that sometimes the attacks are not trivial and one persons triviality is another persons' passion. On the forum there is at least one game close to exploding and other games similar to that due to players not moderating their responses. Email is hateful for writing and sending without any forethought about what impact that has on the other person. (Generally I try to ask myself, when writing emails, would I say that to a person standing in front of me; am I over-reacting, over emotional right now etc). It's when the normal barriers of civilised debate are broken that I see a lot of damage done to the game and players enjoyment of the game and I'm trying to avoid that.

Hence I prefer to have one list unmoderated and the other moderated - that gives leeway for players to choose which they want to be a part of. This list goes through periods of quiet (as does the Forum) and we can support both.

Clint

OK. A need for some clarity here then. It is important in a list such as
this that you read all the mails in a sensitive thread if you're going to
treat people fairly when entering the debate yourself.

If the list is to be moderated, it's important that the moderator also,
considers the whole thread very carefully, especially if he is going to
adjudicate on an allegation of flaming. In this instance it seems that
only one person (he who alleged it) thought that there was a flame. The
word "flame" is an inflammatory (ho ho) one in e-mail groups, so in my
opinion Clint should have rejected it outright unless he agreed that's what
it was.

Flaming is generally defined as harshly, and over heavily demolishing, a
point of view that was put forward in good faith by an individual. So it's
an inaccurate usage in this case any way. You might want to allege that
what was said was "untrue", "libel" or "name calling" but it wasn't flaming
by any usual Internet definition.

Secondly, you need to make sure you are quoting the correct person when
responding. A couple of people have now referred to the use of the term
"crazed activist" giving the impression that it was I who first used
it. It was not. I quite carefully put it in quotation marks, as I was
responding to a post, and referring back to the earlier post which that
writer was answering, in which the term was first used.

The original assertion was that there is a crazed activist on the board who
is deliberately wrecking a game in order to make a point. By quoting the
alias which someone dubbed him, I am not necessarily supporting the
original allegation in full.

_My_ assertion was that that person would like others to believe, that
games with Neutrals problems were failing because of the Player Rating
System. I stand by my assertion.

Neither the first writer's assertion, nor mine are flames. They are
serious concerns, made by people who care about the game, regarding in the
first case, perceived ungentlemanly play, and in the second, a sustained
campaign to undermine the PRS which was brought about by majority assent,
and a lot of hard work, and which almost everyone agreed, would need a long
time to evaluate.

Clint needs to be careful not to simply issue the "Cool it Guys, somebody's
upset" response when what has happened is one person has complained
direct - it's the allegation that there was a flame which was the false
one. The reason that he needs to be careful, is that there appear to be a
number of casual readers of the list, who read everything the GM writes,
but perhaps only skim the posts of others. The impression given therefore,
when the GM warns people to "cool it" under a subject line of "Flaming?" is
that flaming is taking place, and the list is a big scary place. The
newbies and "tender hearts" (look there's quote marks again - it's not my
phrase originally!) will flee, and a serious discussion on an important
issue risks being quashed.

mefacesmo.gif
     Laurence G.Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

At 15:10 13/05/2004, dilipdavid@aol.com wrote:

I know I missed the original emails, so I'm curious if there was any
identifier as to who the "crazed activist" is supposed to be?

I've never been so actively quoted. Does this mean I'm famous?? :wink:

Russ, The Crazed Tenderheart-ripping Activist-Basher

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Laurence G. Tilley
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 7:09 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] "Flaming" and Crazed Activism

  At 15:10 13/05/2004, dilipdavid@aol.com wrote:
  >I know I missed the original emails, so I'm curious if there was any
  >identifier as to who the "crazed activist" is supposed to be?

  OK. A need for some clarity here then. It is important in a list such as
  this that you read all the mails in a sensitive thread if you're going to
  treat people fairly when entering the debate yourself.

  If the list is to be moderated, it's important that the moderator also,
  considers the whole thread very carefully, especially if he is going to
  adjudicate on an allegation of flaming. In this instance it seems that
  only one person (he who alleged it) thought that there was a flame. The
  word "flame" is an inflammatory (ho ho) one in e-mail groups, so in my
  opinion Clint should have rejected it outright unless he agreed that's what
  it was.

  Flaming is generally defined as harshly, and over heavily demolishing, a
  point of view that was put forward in good faith by an individual. So it's
  an inaccurate usage in this case any way. You might want to allege that
  what was said was "untrue", "libel" or "name calling" but it wasn't flaming
  by any usual Internet definition.

  Secondly, you need to make sure you are quoting the correct person when
  responding. A couple of people have now referred to the use of the term
  "crazed activist" giving the impression that it was I who first used
  it. It was not. I quite carefully put it in quotation marks, as I was
  responding to a post, and referring back to the earlier post which that
  writer was answering, in which the term was first used.

  The original assertion was that there is a crazed activist on the board who
  is deliberately wrecking a game in order to make a point. By quoting the
  alias which someone dubbed him, I am not necessarily supporting the
  original allegation in full.

  _My_ assertion was that that person would like others to believe, that
  games with Neutrals problems were failing because of the Player Rating
  System. I stand by my assertion.

  Neither the first writer's assertion, nor mine are flames. They are
  serious concerns, made by people who care about the game, regarding in the
  first case, perceived ungentlemanly play, and in the second, a sustained
  campaign to undermine the PRS which was brought about by majority assent,
  and a lot of hard work, and which almost everyone agreed, would need a long
  time to evaluate.

  Clint needs to be careful not to simply issue the "Cool it Guys, somebody's
  upset" response when what has happened is one person has complained
  direct - it's the allegation that there was a flame which was the false
  one. The reason that he needs to be careful, is that there appear to be a
  number of casual readers of the list, who read everything the GM writes,
  but perhaps only skim the posts of others. The impression given therefore,
  when the GM warns people to "cool it" under a subject line of "Flaming?" is
  that flaming is taking place, and the list is a big scary place. The
  newbies and "tender hearts" (look there's quote marks again - it's not my
  phrase originally!) will flee, and a serious discussion on an important
  issue risks being quashed.

  mefacesmo.gif
       Laurence G.Tilley

  http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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