Can’t you challenge a dragon if he’s in an army prior to combat? Isn’t that a more assured place to find a Dragon and if one isn’t there…you sack the place. (ie. In the game you and I are both in…you know you will run into dragons if you move to certain PC’s almost 100%)
I’m not sure that wandering the misties randomly with a dragon killer is going to find all that many dragons…there are A LOT of possible hexes so I’d wager you’d be lucky to kill a dragon every 10-12 turns which won’t cut it.
Using emissaries to take out measley camps…especially camps that may have great loyalties due to dragon visits seems wasteful of their talents.
An agent to scout? Holy cow…that would be a ton of assets to dedicate to not doing much damage to the DS.
Lastly, I don’t understand your comment about stealing from camps. Personally I find it wasteful and going into the misties an added risk on top.
I learned my lesson several games back sending emissaries in to steal DS camps. My E60 was tasty indeed and I should have chosen better targets anyway.
I agree completely with your camp raiding comments.
He will likely heal on his own before he finds another dragon to find wandering the misties. Take dragons divide by recruitable dragon hexes…it’s a small number.
As expierenced players know dragons don’t frequent the mountain hex until turn 6+ … Next some of those dragon killers the FP have emmy skill nice to steal a DS camp and kill a dragon on the same turn. plus there are many DS pc’s in non mountainous hexs after turn 6 to target…
As for Clints 10/20 mage it is workable as horse farmer and another backup to actually do recruit order on capitol freeing the mage to 710 and 300/508 to gain challenge ranks rapidly… but these guys must be made before turn 6 otherwise they are a waste of gold… also the Army commander should be free to 435 every turn…
The hexes where Dragons will be in armies defending, there will also be agents defending… I’d rather “waste” all those com toys on a starting 50/60 com wandering the Misties. 2 emis and 1 double scout on top of a company commander, no, by mid game isn’t much investment. Hit the DS camps, take them from the DS (yes, they might be high loyalties, might not). Dragon Killer assures the safety of the rest of the group. Last 2 game wandering about with dragon killer on DS Misty pops killed 3 dragons in 1 and 4 in another game.
Note, the Challenge is 1 round. One will die like a bug, the other walks away - there is No healing here…
Once again you plan makes sense to me… Sounds like we need to teamup with FP . I know you think things through and yes Characters like armies should not come with skirts on hiding from risk of death. By risking them they can advance high enough to be tough for any agent to pop them… ever try to assasinate an 80 skill player with a guard order proetcting them?
Not sure, are you implying it’s difficult to do?? 100 loyalty City/Citadel/Capital Natural 70 rank commanders leading high morale armies with Hated relations are getting popped all over the place. Try playing NG in a Gunboat one day…but that’s all for either of the previous threads…
Agreed, no hiding behind one’s high ranks.
I have a question: Would Nimrodel or Tharudan appear on an enemy capital pop report turn 1? 50 mages with extra points…? A current FP game of mine the “team” argued so violently against my Turn 1 Sinda plans, they voted me into a whole new position with 12 hours to spare…sigh…
Yep. Once the DS agents (esp the CL) get to a natural rank of about 75+ with a bit of stealth and an artii they will have just about any character for breakfast any place, every time. Even high rank gaurds will be cut to ribbons and you can get two for one
Ever played in a game where the CL is running at 80+ kills (and its not even turn 25) and his dudes are basically invincible unless lured into a curse trap and picked off from a hex away (the only safe place to be)??
I understand your concerns about killers scooping your arties…I agree there.
Dragon challenges are done more like a skill check then instead the normal challenge calculator? Otherwise unless you had a truly massive challenge character I would have suspected scuffing at least once in a while.
How long did it take for you to kill 3-4 dragons in those games? I’m just surprised you ran across so many but if it was over 25-30 turns then I guess it makes some sense.
Starting turn 10 or so 3 dragons died before Ruingurth, lazy ba$tard got me turn 18. Similar time frame, say 10-11 turn before death in the 4 dragon kill game. A challenge is a challenge, what’s the “skill check”…bit about? Dragons are characters like any other. They have skills and ranks and challenge ranks. Their combat strength has been guessed at, tested with results +/- acceptable ranges. Similar conclusions have been made regarding their challenges. Remember where these things (much of this game…) comes from and you’ll know what I mean. You can get a FP Regent up to over the theorized challenge ranks of 1/3 of the dragons quite simply, then factor in the bonuses and it’s off to the races.
As for Clints 10/20 mage it is workable as horse farmer and another backup to actually do recruit order on capitol freeing the mage to 710 and 300/508 to gain challenge ranks rapidly…
But if you’re doing that then just name a 30 (or 40) Mage… LOL Gain the immediacy of extra mounts and off you go.
Mages: Personally prefer to have them cast two spells a turn until they get close to death and then 710 (or A. N. Other order - at capital they are great for A N Other order for example). 710 doesn’t do anything other than gain future potential in my eyes. But that’s just my style of play.
I mentioned “skill check” because you told me they were 1 round fights…which confused me as very few of the fights are 1 round…but perhaps you meant to say that you beat the dragon unharmed?
Yeah, if you have 20pts. more challenge than your target you will win >90% of challenges whether you are a 190 vs. a 170 or a 50 vs. a 30 the odds are the same.
However, you have to a much larger advantage to get the win % up to 97-98% so I figure that a boosted up character should be able to kill dragons 90% of the time which is approximate to the results you experienced.
I’m surprised you ran into so many dragons so quickly in both games by just roaming the misties or did you do something else or use additional tracking resources?
Well, the Dwarf pops help. Capture Gundabad and Gram and you have 6 quality beacons of your own, chase them back and forth there. Oddly enough, the time of my dragon hunting, after turn 8-10 or so we’d see dragon appear on pops and then wouldn’t be there the next turn. 1 turn sitting so early in the game…? I ended up having more luck “roaming”.
Regarding rounds of challenges, every victory the dude walks away with 100 health. Every death is pretty quick too… Have I been killed while the message advises that my character “took the initiative” or some such that might allude to my winning round 1, NOT killing, then losing round 2? Don’t know. Of course, I barely know how challenges work - the winner applies his entire challenge rank to his opponents health, or a RNG from 1-Challenge Rank? Even if it’s random, the odds of breaking 100 when you’re 250+ (++bonuses) are so great that the 1 round swat is certainly the vast majority.
Thanks, good point about the beacons…I wasn’t thinking clearly on that topic.
I understand the challenge calculation…in fact, I made an excel spreadsheet that calcs your odds based upon starting health and challenge ranks. (if you want a copy email me) Others who have done the same have agreed with my results.
Actually, it compares your challenge rating + random component to the opponents rating + random. Whoever was bigger does up to the DIFFERENCE in damage to the other guy and it repeats until someone croaks.
There are critical hit potentials built in so even a C30 can beat someone like Elrond but that would like flipping a coin to land on heads over a dozen times in a row.
As a rough rule of thumb if you have 10 more challenge rank you win 65%, 20 more challenge rank and you win 85%, 30 more challenge rank and you win 93% and from there odds of success only go up about 1% per 10 challenge points.
Challenge ranks don’t matter, the difference does…so 50 vs 30 is the same odds as 150 vs 130 etc.
P.S. It has been noted in several games that dragons don’t seem to sit still. I cannot compare this to prior as I haven’t been around so long…but I can tell you from what I’ve seen lately that a 1 turn visit is not uncommon.
For every good plan you DS lovers say can’t be done… I beg to differ or DS would win every game… That simply is not the truth and they do not win every game beyond turn 15 either… Only the CL with artifacts can punch through a 80+ anything with a 30 + guard in an army. No 75 could with just +20 assaination… It does not work that way… I simply know better. When I lose characters in armys it’s becuase they are unguarded by agent support or Facing agents with powerful artifacts…
That is why making 10/20 early in game is so effective… By the time and agent can get your 50+ commanders in armies the gaurds agent skill is masked by thier comm skill making it difficult… and the assasins can be setup for a greeting party…
Strategy is fluid and the CL lord can be taken out by a crafty FP team…
Hey Terry I think you are (wilfully) misunderstanding the views above. What I think consensus is saying is that given 2 competent or 2 highly skilled teams, DS have a significant advantage. With market manipulation as well, that advantage becomes overwhelming.
FP can and do win games but mostly this is because they are noticeably better at team play or individual skill or because the DS have weaker players / are not a team / have real life issues.
I admire your championing of a different way / a different consensus but please dont misinterpret what us “DS Lovers” are saying
If you guys really believe the DS have such an overwhleming advantage then here’s a suggestion. Either remove CL +20 assasinate/kidnap or Give Sinda the same SNA… nothing else would need to be done.
Gain the immediacy of extra mounts and off you go.