Game 2, POWER Game

General
#101

Harad and Corsairs going to one side is no longer a balanced game. We tried to explain this point of view but most people just see 4-1 and fail to take into account the position and vulnerability of nations. Rhu and Duns (along with the WK) will still be whittled down, this process will just take far longer (Unless you Freeps make collossal mistakes) Easties are already being trimmed back in the Rhun and at the edge of Mordor now with the Southerns freep he is very vulnerable.
Had we managed to convince Corsairs to go DS this game would be more balanced (All be it slightly DS advantaged) Now with both of them Free it is a Massive Freep advantage. Neither nation can be effectively targeted by the DS and virtually no damage can be done to them. You now have total controll of the seas and the ability to land massive amounts of troops at Osgiliath unhindered, We cannot hope to beat this combination. You win the South, you win the game. This hands you the South on a plate, ergo game over, it is just a matter of time. We will give it our best shot but are staring down the barrel of a nasty beating.

Regards Herman

#102

You forget herman that we are far superior players.
I say we will win this game easily.

Just look at them. We have turn 4 and I have had no popcentres burned.
Come on freeps, I want to go down in a blaxe of glory :slight_smile:

  • Drg.L
#103

Herman has essentially nailed it on the head. Now this doesn’t mean ti won’t be a fun game, the challenging game is often the fun one. I expect it to be fun and meet some good new players, and will strive for the victory, but I don’t expect it.

#104

I’m a little surprised at the negativity and defeatism. Doesn’t each nation posess strengths and weaknesses? Sure, the ideal would be to have the Harad and Corsairs battle it out between themselves. That was mine and Dave’s desire from the beginning if possible. But with three neutrals on the DS side, both bridges to Gondor blown, and the ability to reveal popcentres, I would think that this game is far from certain. Yes, it will take a bit to get at the southern strongholds. The flipside, of course, is that it will take us a bit to get at everyone else…

#105

It’s not defeatism as no one is giving up, I know that for sure. And yes there are strengths and weaknesses to each nation.

But it is a hard sell to tell me that CS=Easterlings, Harad=Rhu, or any combination. Let’s look at the economics (the most important factor in this game), and the recruiting power of CS+HD vs. Rhu+Duns, since the argument is that each neutral is equal. I’ll also put Easterlings in the mix, to show that I think that 2 FP neutrals does not equal the 3 DS neutrals. I’m doing this to show why we are saying what we are. This much is fact:

Economics/Recruiting base:
CS 1 City, 6 MTs, 1 town
HD 5 MTs, 9 Towns

Rhu 2 MTs, 4 towns
Duns 1 MT, 4 towns

Easterlings 1 City, 1 MT, 8 towns

CS+HS = 1 City, 11 MTs, 10 towns
RH+Duns = 3 MTs, 8 towns. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Strengths and weaknesses? Yeah, pretty apparent here.
RH+Duns+EA=1 City, 4 MTs, 16 towns. STILL NOT CLOSE. I’d take the 7 MTs over the 6 towns.

Now, let’s look at the geographical situation. Rhu has 5 enemy City/MTs in one turns march. Duns has 3 MTs in one turn march. EA has a whopping 7 FP MTs in one turns march from their pop centers. Harad has one, CS has zero. So they have more of them, and they are safer. This is amplified by:

CS+HD navy = 58 Warships and 36 transports.
The entire DS navy outside of Rhun is 18 WS, 9 Transports.

So the ability to project power is not even an argument. “Take us a bit to get at everyone else” is hogwash and everyone knows it, either one can land anywhere up the Anduin or anywhere else for that matter at will.

Nation abilities are not even an edge. Both Rhu and Harad have free hire. All have challenge bonus. Easterlings gets comms at 40, and Duns get agents at 40 and scout/recon (quite useful if they live that long).

The ONLY argument for 3-2 in the way it is, is that 3 nations get more characters than 2. It’s the only one.

With all this, and the above is just simple fact, I don’t see how you can say there is great balance here. CS/HD together are in the economically favorable south, where they can outrecruit everyone, and project power at will.

Now all that said, I respect your decisions and know why you made them, i just disagree. We’re still going to kick your butts =)

#106

Guys, I’ll hand you ANY game that Harad/Corsair go the same way that team dose well. But not for a minute do I think that its game over, FP victory.

The idea of balance in a 5 way spit always leaves someone feeling slighted. Even when one team gets 3, like in this case, they are not all equal. One team gets 4 that’s no-where near balanced. In our game, with the Easterlings being near impossible to talk and coronate with, once Dun/Rhud jumped DS as a block on turn 2 there was no fair split to the neutrals, plan and simple. I’m laying no blame here, I’m just saying this game is a hard thing to balance. Most people are still wondering why 1650 works so well with such different nations involved, I at times still scratch my head at the thought.

Cheers,
John-Noldo

#107

That’s all fair. Was just clarifying the basis of our argument.

#108

JB dont waste ur breathe…any kind of analyse you show just will get Ironlord calling you a mudslinger, because apparently he single handedly convinced the Harad and Corsairs to go Free, not based on Harad/corsairs desire for game balance…

#109

Well I think that I have both stunning skills and stunning diplomacy;)

#110

Well I think that I have both stunning skills and stunning diplomacy. Shame on you for suggesting that I do not.

:smiley:

#111

So many things above that I disagree with, the least of which is that they are all “facts” as JB asserted. On an aside, you are giving this EA too many popcens. I guess that he is not talking too much with the DS, or you would have known that he is about to lose one more…

But I do agree that we FP appear to be statistically more likely to win at this point. Although I have witnessed RH/DU/EA vs CO/HA split won by the RH/DU/EA allegiance. And I concur with the opinion that the ONLY 2-3 split that is stronger than any combination of 3-2 split is where the CO/HA join together. Regardless of allegiance in which any of the split combinations should play out.

In this game the FP were precluded from anything other than a 2-3 or 1-4 or 0-5 split when RH/DU declared early and EA chose not to coordinate or communicate with us. So I ask you, how many 1650 games have you seen where the NTs split HA to one allegiance, and the remaining 4 neutrals to the other? And to have all of this happen by T5? I haven’t seen this type of split ever, which only indicates to me that it is uncommon, not unknown. And what kind of game does a 0-5 split get us?

All 5 of the Neutral players are paying for their game, and playing the way they see fit. Who are we to question their allegiance decisions? I am certain the FP could have griped about the RH/DU flip, but we did not. And any griping we may have done about the EA is a collective response to guilt that we may have somehow jumped the uncommunicative SOB.

I guess we could have collectively asked CO and HA players to go about their southern war for a while. That would have left the rest of us to slug through a 12 plus RH&DU plus sort of EA vs FP fight. And then what? After HA or CO beats one of themselves out of the game, the remaining nation would choose: to limp into the FP’s allegiance or rebuild behind a DS shield.

I know which of the two choices I would make 9 times out of 10.

#112

May have? The EA wasn’t coordinating with anyone. Not only did you jump him, but you did it knowing full well it would bring you both Harad and the Corsairs.

#113

Agreed, the harad and corsairs made it clear they preferred a split between their nations to make it interesting. The free jumped the EA knowing this would force him into a DS declaration (why would anyone join a team when they were treated so harshly)…and what is the rational? His movements were in your way? Did the EA ever once attack you? He had full capabilities of attacking and neither occasion did so…
Regardless of anything this is the split we have, but Pearly you certainly shouldnt say the neutrals ALL decided to go the way they wanted. You attacked the EA plain and simple, yes he may not have communicated and movements may have been disrupted but you attacked him. And further more why would any neutral join a side that just attacked him, that makes no sense. As a direct result of this you knew that this would give you the Harad/Cors due to their desire for game balance. Again this is the split we have and we will all deal with it, but by no means did your team not force this…

#114

As always, there are two sides to every story, and you have apparently heard the EA’s. This is somewhat annoying, because it again indicates the EA player has been talking to you (DS) but not us(FP).

The only email I ever received from him was a polite but unambiguous “tough luck and try harder next time.” That was his response when I emailed him, pointing out all of factors 1-3 and the additional LR actions below, and telling him we were quickly coming to an impasse because of his silence.

This is the objective EA events from FP pdf’s that I pointed out to him:

  1. Bouncing 4 FP armies in 3 turns.
  2. Maintaining his starting armies at 3713 and 4014 throughout.
  3. Sliding one army up around the backside of Rhun (again bouncing SE).

In addition, there was the LR sabotage of the bridge at 3712 and attempt at 3612. As well as the EA army bumping the SE fleet along side the LR cav at 4415. Both of which make his actions suspect, and which I pointed out to him.

As a team we collectively emailed this player multiple times. He only ever responded twice. The second and last time was the day before that turn was run, and it is the email I described above. He never proactively reached out to us. I would point out that it was the EA player himself who posted his email address innaccurately for all of us to use. And further add that I took the extra-ordinary step of following up to solve his bouncing email dillema AND trying to reach him via the message boards. To which, several of the DS players responded with some degree of amusement.

I also want to point out that it was you (the DS) who were apparently talking to him, and you were also aware that we (the FP) were trying without success to reach him.
Armed with this knowledge which of the two choices did your team make:

  1. Tell him the FP were trying to reach him but his email address wasn’t working.
    or
  2. Remain silent about his email problem.

If you told him about the problem, then he truely made his own bed and now gets to lay in it. If you failed to tell him of his problem, then my kudos to you for “sticking it” to another player, and perhaps now trying to make it look like it is the FP’s who have collectively demonstrated poor sportsmanship?

Now let me tell you what choice my team made:

We waited one more turn, when we knew that attacking the EA would most likely get HA nad CO to flip FP even though we had time to change our orders and attack him immediately.
We waited one extra turn to hear anything from him, after we solved the email problem and knew he was receiving our emails.

In return for waiting and accepting the risk he could simply flip DS, we got the same silence that had been indicative of his play in this game. And we got some indication off of the messsage board that you (DS) had been talking to him during the turn that we waited. Again aggravating the situation.

Contrary to your belief, several of us (admittedly not all) have been emailing and courting the neutrals throughout this game. It is probably the only reason that RH and DU gave us advance notice of their flips. There was no lack of opportunity for the EA to talk to us, only a lack of his desire.

So before you start accusing us of jumping this guy, take a look at all the facts, and then take another long look in the mirror and ask yourself what you would have done and what you should have done. I have a hunch that some of the DS in this game might just be getting a wee bit hypocritical about how the Fp should ahve treated the neutrals and the EA in particular.

#115

Hi guys, Harad here.

ok. heavens! you DS are whining too much. really!
think how much fun it will be for you to actually pull out a win in this game after all this talk of being disadvantaged… Now to do that you’re going to have to beat the FP. Start spending your energy on that!

for my part, here’s how I think as a neutral:

if one side won’t be fun to join, i’ll join the other.
if both sides seem fun to join, i’ll join the one that makes for a better game for all 25 players.

Dun/Rhu/WK as DS in the NW is not a sure-fire FP victory up there. I’ve seen games where WK & Rhu survive, DS win, all with no Dun ally. Surely the threesome can make a game of it!

I am sorry if the DS believe that it would be a more balanced game with 14 vs 11 than the 13v12 we’ll have. I’m not saying this 13v12 is “balanced”. It’s just more “balanced” than the alternative 14v11 choices available.

As to John Brigg’s arguments of why it isn’t balanced, I respectfully would like to point out that this game rests upon 2 major pillar concepts. The first is economics. John’s arguments are on-target for that pillar. The second is orders. John gives this brief mention at the end of his article, mentioning characters. Folks, orders are hugely important. They’re how we do things. All of us have wanted for orders in every game we play. We want more than we have. Always…

Now, consider the 14v11 scenario with the 14 being DS. What other edge do the DS have in this game? K/A. K/A takes away orders from the other side. Thus, the 14v11 scenario which was the alternative was really unbalanced when orders are considered.

In my finaly analysis, I felt that while there’s now an edge to FP given Harad and Corsairs joining FP, that the 14v11 split to DS was a far stronger edge to DS. far stronger. Properly played, the DS take away lots of orders from the FP. the disparity in orders would have made the 14v11 scenario very difficult indeed for the FP to win.

As it is, the DS can win this game. But only if you outplay the FP. FP have the benefit of being able to make a few mistakes and still win. The margin for error will be less for the DS. But it’s the best balanced game that Harad and Corsairs could arrange given the circumstances.

Dave

p.s. regarding how good folks are at recruiting - i think this is a silly argument in this particular game. I never asked for any “bribes” and don’t expect any. I play a team game. I suspect that Rhu/Duns didn’t get “recruited” nearly so much as they decided it would be a fun & challenging game for them to play DS.

#116

Thanks Dave your PS was that point I was tryint to make in my post, it comes much better from you. Now can we get on with yelling at the people who dont have there turns in! They are the real foe! Run those orders boys! Good Luck to all.

John-Noldo

#117

Absolutely. I’ll particularly enjoy pissing on the grave of the self-appointed “Guardian of Game Balance”.

FP have the benefit of being able to make a few mistakes and still win.

That’s a nice advantage… one I’m sure you’ll need to make full use of…

#118

Geez this sure is getting personal.

For the record, I really wanted two things as Duns in this game.

First, I kinda wanted ot go DS, just because I had never seen anyone do it and it seemed like it could be really fun.

Second, I really wanted to ally with Rhudaur…I don’t know why, really, it just seemed like a good idea. If Rhu would have gone FP, then I’m not sure what I would have done, but I probably would have followed him FP for two reasons: He seems like a great player and teammate, and I’d be smooshed like a bug between NG and Cardolan almost immediately if I was the odd man out.

Conveniently, Rhu wanted to go DS, so that pretty much sealed it for me, since I got to stick with Rhu plus I got to try the fun game of playing a DS Dun nation.

HOWEVER, when I found out that the Easterlings were probably going to end up DS, and that the Corsairs and Harad would almost certainly flip Free as a result, I began having serious misgivings about going DS. In fact, I started to feel like it would actually be better for overall game balance if I just went free, against my own desires (and plans), just because that would allow CO/HA to split. In the end, I chose (somewhat selfishly, perhaps) to go with what I thought would be more fun from my own perspective.

Now, with the spectre of Middle-earth’s largest navies showing up on my shore, and with North Gondor finding no way to go but west, I may be in for a lot more “fun” than I bargained for.

Hopefully there won’t be any long-lasting hard feelings between anyone regarding the outcome of the neutrals in this game, since I believe that both sides in this game have quite a few very talented and fun players. I’m especially looking forward to playing with instead of against some of the FP in a future game, but I intend to make life for you as difficult as possible in this one. :slight_smile:

Darrell – Dunlendings

#119

Yeah. My apologies to all because I began to rant in my last post. A real night’s sleep makes for a cooler head (and mouth).
I know I owe a pint for T3, but who is the turtle this turn?

#120

LOL. that’s a bit harsh, don’t you think Doggy?

Like it would have been ever so much better a game 14DS v 11FP. geesh. Or would you have preferred 15v10? That’s a fair fight.

Just for the record, what criteria do you suppose neutrals should use? I told you mine. Disagree with me if you want, but at least explain your thinking. John B. and James have both articulately explained their thinking. We all disagree, but at least it’s civil. So, what criteria do you think should be used?

I suspect you think neutrals should just join YOUR team. period. hmmm… I can see why the other DS did the negotiations with the neutrals and kept you in the background. a few attempts at rational discussion with you and the neutrals would all have decided to flip the other way.

So… Come and Get it Doggy Boy. We’ll keep the light on for you.

Dave