Nice to see Rhudaur fighting to the last Angmarien. Dun capital gone new capital about to fall initiative slowly turning to my new allies.
I am certainly impressed by the DS assault of my Eastern lands. Agents abound. Yes to have Ji Indur, Tormog, Lomelinde, Din Ohtar, and Muranog all combining to steal 7000 gold and kill one character very efficient use of your agents. Meanwhile the west falls to the Free. Stay as long as you want, it serves our purpose. You have already lost your opportunity with me I am afraid. new pops in new areas and allies willing to replace my capital if needed you cannot knock me out though I know you badly want to.
This turn went to the Free, I feel pretty secure in saying that.
Yes, Tine is the only DS that bothers with these kinda things… oh, hang on, that’ll be me too, well that’s until we all drop since the game is obviously lost now that the 3 southern neutrals went yellow-belly together and took the easy option of surrounding Mordor.
Sigh, some games are just sooooo boring due to want-an-easy-victory neutrals who can’t see the big picture.
My question is? Who’s more Freep? You seem to be the only one who’s speaking on the behalf of them, so maybe you’re their leader? Hey, maybe you were pre-aligned? Maybe ALL the southern neuts were pre-aligned cos they can’t take a tough battle.
Well I say bring it on! I prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around.
Didn’t someone else say that? Far, far away… a long time ago?
Come on Tine, let the nice Easterly gentleman go now and lets go after the really dangerous individuals
No I was not prealigned. I joined this game blind did not know who was playing. It ended up I knew one player on the Free team and two on the DS team. I like all three of these players so a personality clash was not a factor.
The 3 Southern Neutrals made contact with each other early and stayed in close contact through the early turns. We found that we got along well and did not relish the idea of fighting each other. We decided to let game play and diplomacy determine how we would go. I did not know any of the neutral players at all prior to the game start and to answer your question no we were not prealigned any more than Rhudaur or the Duns were and they went to your side pretty quickly.
I am more vocal than Tom or Benny because I am the one your side has attacked and I am the one actively fighting against you. I am not the leader of the Southern Alliance, we are all equals and have chosen early on to work together.
Frankly for me the thing that eased me toward the Free was that by the admission of your own players you felt that you were having a pretty easy time of smashing the Free. Then came the early decision of Rhudaur followed by the Duns to join the DS. I was concerned that the game would end early if help was not provided to the Free. My Southern allies too were concerned about the longevity of the game but the die was not cast. I had better contact with the Free than my friends and put things bluntly to them that we were concerned about the game ending before we had a chance to really do anything in the game and so the game would have been a waste of our playing time. The Free opened up to me shared their short term plans and convinced me that they could at least right the ship and make the game competitive. Still the die was not cast. Planning was initiated among the three Southern neutrals of what we would do in the event we joined the Free and also what we would do if we joined the DS. I am guilty of a breach of security in that I inadvertantly sent one of your team members a message dealing with that planning. That message forced my hand as Lomelinde immediately landed on one of my armies and assassinated the commander. This in spite of my offers to withdraw my troops away from your population centers and to take no hostile action. I kept my work and Lomelinde murdered anyway. That prompted me to join my nations fortunes with the Free.
I think your side knew all along that there was a mutual defense arrangement among the Southern neutrals. I think you knew all along that Harad and The Corsairs did not want to negate their powerful position by fighting each other. I think however you underestimated the loyalty between our nations and the players to each other. Your attack was a diplomatic blunder. As your alliance has demonstrated you have lots of killer agents who could have defanged the Easterlings and made them no threat if I took a threatening move. Agents have much greater strategic mobility than armies after all. You chose however to strike at me instead of taking a diplomatic role with me. Ricard argued hard to seperate me from my only two allies at the time. Had your side not actually chosen to attack me perhaps things would have worked out differently, now we will never know. I believe this was a diplomatic and tactical blunder by your team. The attack will not succeed, you will not eliminate me as a lesson to Harad and the Corsairs. Your attack simply cemented our bonds of loyalty.
Don’t try to blame others Trav. You may lose the game but that is not assured. Well I think actually it probably is over the long run. However there are still opportunities for your side if things are well fought. Let me assure you however there was no preallinged conspiracy, no mini team signing up, and no shirking of a challenge of a competitive game. My decision was based on keeping the game competitive and your sides attack on me. Tom and Benny can discuss the reasons of their decision if they choose to.
I hope not all your team is as defeatist as you seem to be.
Hi Trav,
What your are writing is some of the worst bullocks I have heard for a long time sorry to say that but I told your side aswell as the FP that I’ll join the side with the best DIPLO and so far I havn’t heard anythink from your side for over 3 turns now, so I can only come to that conclusion you don’t want Harad on your side then.
I’m not fame for going the easy way as I have played a couple of 1-4 split some of those where because of bad diplo, but some of them where also because we want more action, all those games went around 30 turns with one side or the other gave up.
So far in this game there will be a 2-3 split against you as I still havn’t turn side yet but we are talking turn 8 here and I havn’t done any hostile action against your side so stop wining and play the game as it is.
Yes you could blame me for not sending a mail to your side for the last 3 turns, but I didn’t send mails to the FP aswell but they hadn’t forgotten me so I got some letters from them every turn and I tried to reply them, thats why I go FP because they spooked to me.
Too be fair, Benny, I sent you at least 2 emails that went unanswered. That plus Brad’s comment in the misdirected email that you had requested that he march an army icon west, led me to the (I still believe correct) conclusion that you as well as Brad (and possibly the Corsairs as well) had already decided to declare Free. At that point, I felt that continuing to try to convince you to go Dark would be a waste of my time, so I stopped.
I will make one other more general comment. This idea of a “Southern Alliance” that seems to be in vogue recently, where all 3 southern neutrals ally with each other early in the game and then join one side or the other as a group, is really bad for the game. Except under very unusual circumstances, neither the FP nor the DS have much of a chance if all 3 southern neutrals declare against them. As a result, in all games where there is a “Southern Alliance,” the entire game is about who can get the 3 southern neutrals to join their side. While diplomacy is an integral part of the game, allowing it to swallow all other aspects of the game in this way is unfortunate. I urge all players who control southern neutrals to consider this point, to reject any suggestion that they create a “Southern Alliance,” and to otherwise make a deliberate point of running their nation in such a way as to not allow this to happen.
I realize as the Quiet Avenger the fact that all the Southern Neutrals have joined the Free is a worst case scenario for you. However, what you propose that the Southern Neutrals for the sake of making the game more interesting perhaps for the two aligned teams of nations fight with each other ignores the most basic fact that the neutrals are supposed to be in it for themselves.
The neutral nations have no reason to seek balance they are neutral to find the scenario that best suits their national purpose as determined by the players involved. To have Harad and the Corsairs fight a bloody private war against each other does not serve the interest of those two nations. Whether they are laying waste to the Quiet Avenger and Southern Mordor or to Southern Gondor and Northern Gondor that is what is in their best interests to expand their empires at the expense of their victims. To do otherwise is to make them no different than the prealligned nations of a grudge game.
Diplomacy is important to be sure, but finally in an open game like this it is what is best for the nations that begin neutral that should drive their play not anything else. We did not know each other at game start but liked each others approach and style. We decided we did not want to fight each other. I can see no fault in that. Will it make it hard for the DS to win and even harder for your nation to survive most certainly but that is the way the game was designed. It can be done however. In a previous game with John Simpson, we lost all three southern neutrals and Rhudaur as well. We did get the Duns being played by Bobbins. We were the Free and South Gondor was badly ravaged but eventually we prevailed through propping up South Gondor and keeping him in the game and the eventual intervention of the Free Curse Squad and Assassins. So I think you face an uphill battle but you still have a chance for victory regardless of the neutral situation in the south.
I feel sorry for Jim. He did a decent job of contacting you guys, as did Tine and so did I (and it has to be said, did you get contact from the Arthedain? Cardolan? Freep nations that would have no contact with you? Cos the Dragon Lord offered artifacts galore which you turned down)
I did not accuse you of being pre-aligned. My words indicate that you may as well have been, since we intercepted an email from Brad (I can post it on the forum for all to see if you wish… though it’s no kind of proof I realise, just interesting reading) that indicated on turn 4 that you (all 3 southern neutrals) were moving forces into position for a pre-emptive attack on the DS with no intention of making an announcement of an intention of turning Free.
We acted on that and the only neutral with whom we kept up diplomacy was Tom (Corsairs) because he would talk back, and he DID let us know his intention before the attack on the QA unlike Benny. I have the utmost respect for Tom, he has been playing the position with aplomb!
To say that the 3 southern neuts against 2 north neuts is an even split is ridiculous! You would never get a pre-aligned grudge game started with those unfair allignments, since just any one of the southern neuts could account for rhud and duns combined in a straight fight.
And lastly, you’ve seen games go to 30 turns with 4-1 splits? I’m sure you have, but 30 turns is a relatively short game. We’ll still be here at 30+, though now the odds are 13 to 8, who would back us.
Trav, I sent a message to one of you by mistake you did not intercept anything. As I said earlier, the decision made early was that we did not want to fight each other. To answer your questions yes I heard early and often from both Cardolan, and the Noldo and the Northmen and the Gondors and the Dwarves. Yes you offered combat artifacts evil aligned combat artifacts which would have tied my hands, what did you ask for in return? You asked for a major town or a town. This was not an equitable trade to me and I politely told you so. I offered to trade population centers with you and that was the last I heard from you.
Facts are facts; you received a misdirected email. You chose to attack. I offered to pull my troops back and renew discussions. Your side chose to murder the commander of my largest army. It was only then that I attacked in direct response to your attack on me. There can be no denial that you initiated hostilities with the Easterlings against the willingness of the Easterlings to talk and resolve any misunderstanding.
My desire was to wait until turn 10 before making a decision. I had better and more substantive contact from the Free and so was leaning in that direction. When I saw that they were no longer being drubbed by the DS the issue was not as pressing for me. I would have been content to wait. However having seen where things stand now I would certainly have joined with them. They are playing better as a team, and that is what would ultimately have made my decision.
Stop your whining about how underhanded Benny and I were. Play the game.
Jim
sorry I havn’t seen your letters send to me or else I would have responded, I get around 30-50 mails every day and in real life I’m very
busy at the moment and have been for the last couple of months so for exsample this is the first time today I have the time to answer after I have been up for around 16 hours.
No I didn’t know any of the other neutrals in this game, havn’t played with them as allies don’t know if I had played against them as a foe.
Trav,
What it’s you don’t understand with the 2-3 split against you. In another thread one week ago that I would think gave your side plenty of time to
take action.
As you have been in this game for 12 years or so and I think to recall you mentioned have played Harad once or twice and then I think you should know that Harad can’t do alot on turn 4 against DS.
Let him be. Let the actions of his nation do his talking. He really is helping his side let’s see he now says they are 8 against 13 so is he is confirming they have lost 4 nations? Can’t blame that on us evil 3 Southern Nations, we haven’t attacked anyone hard enough to have eliminated them. Trav is only spewing sour grapes now.
