Game 81 Untold war

Hi there David and team. A new game setup, I’ve never played the untold war before (in point of fact I’ve only ever played 1650 because I’m too lazy to learn any other scenario). Looks interesting, small map, big characters and straight into it :slight_smile: Tax rate starting at 60% in an interesting touch :slight_smile: So we’ll be the good guys and you will be t’udda ones (mostly the sad and lonely ones :slight_smile:

Good luck to you. Turns are due 14th March by the looks. Looking forward to seeing you on the field, I’ll let your imagination run wild with that :slight_smile:

Cheers

Rob aka Winsten Wun Toof.

Turn 1 results are in. The scenario has a 13 turn limit, taxes start on 60%, nations have a pile of MT’s and cities (with very low fortifications), so it’s likely to be lively :slight_smile:

In Rohan the White Wizard sent his large forces from 2119 and was intercepted by two small Rohirric forces at 2120. Theoden felt that the residents on the exclusive hill side developments would prefer not to have dirty smelly Dunlanders chasing their toy sheep…

In the central West the White wizard advanced alone on Imladris. The Noldo for their part sent a small force unopposed to the WK’s town at 2108.

In the NW a small Northman force has intercepted a much larger one at 2405. Another WK army lies at 2404 adjacent. They look set to enter the Mirkwood in force, but much like the Rohirrim, the locals prefer to keep them out.

In central Mirkwood the Silvan elves are all over the place and adjacent to 2809. A dog army has made it to 2911 against lesser opposition. A huge FK army has been stopped at 2510. And numerous DS icons close to the Noldo at 2514.

A good opening turn. A population loss for both sides, DS armies with their generally greater security in home areas have gone on the advance, and have been well blocked by the Freep. Turn 2 normally gives great insight as to who will take the initiative.

Cheers

Winsten Wun Toof

Hi there Rob,
I guess this will be a monologue.
As far as I can remember David’s team won’t post a single message.-

Looking on the results … hmm, they’re more interesting than our common 1650-stuff.
I might be wrong, but due to the location of the DS-PCs (mountains and forest) they might have a small starting advantage.
Most of them are out of reach for our starting-armies.

… but we’re in position!

Have Fun!

Gixxx

Hi Gixxx. I post the turn results so other players can get a feel from what’s going on when they read the thread.

Yes it certainly appears the DS start with a positional advantage controlling the passes, they’re well protected whereas we have our two largest nations surrounded and in completely exposed positions. Still, that’s the last bit of good news they’re going to get :slight_smile:

Hi Rob,
… yeah, you’re right!

Have Fun!

Gixxx

Turn 2 results are in and it’s time for another run-down of the Untold War. The DS have the slight upper hand given their superior and concentrated positions, and proximity to the fight. Freep armies continue to make their way into the fray.
North – WK large forces saw off some Northy interlopers at 2405 and is now host to a small band of drunken Dwarven football hooligans. Doubt that the local constabulary will be overly put out.
West of the Misties the defenders of Imladris were put to the sword. The hidden city remains aaahm hidden for the time being. Bill Ferny is mooching around stinking up the place. A freep army is camping out at 2208. DS armies at 2108, 2209, and the 3 FK Mt’s at 2307 (newly hired) 2309 and 2409. Busy little buggers…
In the gap of Rohan the Rohirric cav atomised the major WW startup army at 2120. Another large WW force has been intercepted at 2020. With Bill Ferny at 2209 we should have accounted for the WW start-ups.
Mirkwood – The DS burned the Sylvan elves MT at 2911. Given that we start with no freep armies in range of 2911 we’re kinda hard pressed to stop that kind of miscreant behaviour :slight_smile: The Noldo intercepted a large Dog force at 2615, we’re betting that’s the cav. The FK have sent armies east, and one slipped through to the undefended/unfortified Noldo town at 2513. The Noldo for their part put an army on the undefended/unfortified FK town at 2511 – Have at you stinky!!! :slight_smile:
General – the WW has fully committed to battle for the time being and hasn’t made much impact (though has gotten himself noticed :slight_smile: The Noldo are coming under pressure now with FK and dog apparently concentrating on them. Though there are quite a few Freep around so we’ll see who scrambles best. DS as mentioned open with a solid positional advantage, and defending any pop near S.Mirkwood is always going to be hard for us Freep, the response is the question.
Cheerio!

Hi there Gents,
I think Rob will tell you more details.

… but now on turn 3 we will be able to burn their first MTs.-

As mentioned before, the DS have a light starting advantage in this scenario.
They haven’t used it in all details.

… now we will see what’s going on
… and my plans went out very well

Have Fun!

Gixxx

Hi all. Turn 3 results are in, and my Noldo getting a bit of a sting. Due to the game setup there’s not a lot you can do about that so we’ll move on :slight_smile:

A huge Drag army is at 2514 (city/fort) facing a Noldo army. Another huge Doglord army is at 2615 after destroying another small Noldo force. A large FK army is at 2414 (Noldo unfortified town) facing an ‘army’ sized Noldo force. A large FK army is at 2413 (Noldo city/-). Given that Noldo start with a small force of archers, and that they’re surrounded and their recruit potential is outnumbered roughly 3 to 1 you begin to get a feel for the plight of the elves and the attractiveness of far off sandy beaches :slight_smile:

Ah well…

The Dwarves have made it to Goblin gate (FK MT/T) and are facing a small and an army sized FK force with an ‘army’ of their own. Good luck to the dwarves.

Significant WK forces eschewing from the 2305 area. Freep icons around.

Noldo in a fit of spite burned the FK town at 2511 and moved to the FK village at 2411.

Two drag forces - an army and a small army face a Dwarven ‘army’ at 2711

Sylvan elves have marched up to the newly revealed Drag MT/T at 2809.

So hopefully a couple of reasons for the baddies to feel pain this coming turn :slight_smile:

White wizard and Rohan trading blows at 2020 this turn. The middle ground between 2119 and 2121 becoming the best fertilised tract of potato fields in middle earth.

So on the freep side Noldo is in a pickle. I can’t see that this was avoidable in any way given the poor startup they get - surrounded and desperately outnumbered. We did a block :slight_smile:

The DS are taking a bit of damage in FK… and hopefully that’ll continue :slight_smile:

… it will continue!

Have Fun!

Gixxx

… and I’m happy with my results!

I wasn’t able to take out Sarn Goriwing with archers.

  • I’m damming the battle-calc for the second time.-

Anyway, most things went out pretty well.
GG in history and some more DS-armies will die this turn.

I think Rob will give you ore info soon.

Have Fun!

Gixxx

???

Weren’t you there for the infamous Eothraim vs Cameth Brin fiasco?

:slight_smile:

Hiya all. Turn 4 has run, and there’s a feel of a change in the air. The main battle is still on Noldo lands. Drag and Dog have both landed huge armies at the Noldo cap 2514. Not much can be done about that, and since it’s revealed, presumably they’ll capture it this turn. A FK large army has removed the recruit seed at 2413, another large FK army has taken out 2414, and 2513 was previously captured. That leaves just 2413 intact, and 2314 a t/- newly revealed by the lovely Murazor. A couple of freep icons nearby, see what we see.

The dwarves burned Goblin gate to the ground, and Noldo blocked a couple of DS forces at 2209.

Further north WK forces look to be contained at 2405 and 2505. Those hexes have been hotly contested from gamestart and the deadlock looks set to continue.

More white wizard forces burned at 2020 which with 2120 has also seen a long and costly deadlock maintained.

All in all we’re happy. Our startup forces started the game a long way from the battle, and now they’re filtering forward. The freep should be able to make a better accounting now, and without giving anything away, we’re feeling that things will change for the better as we start to counter the DS. We’ve suffered little enough damage other than the Noldo, see where round 2 takes us…

Hi all. Turn 5 is in. The DS continue to take advantage of the weak Freep start in the centre (they’re doing depressingly well with it alas :slight_smile:

The Noldo capital fell this turn so that’s 2 towns and a city fallen. Another town will fall this turn. A bright spot of amusement though, Murazor who was so focussed on pulling the lycra camo cloth off Noldo towns didn’t notice the Freep magi creep up on him. The nasty names they called him were so hurtful that he up and died :slight_smile: Murazor enters the next cyle of life. I’m reliably informed he was reincarnated as a gerbil… Anyway, revealing mage gone, that may slow proceedings down.

In the south the White Wizard and Rohan continue to trade mutually destructive blows but this time the fight is at 2119 for a change. Rohan inching forward… :slight_smile:

Freep armies have appeared at 3019 and 3020 adjacent to Mordor mountain major pops, and a small Rohan army with eagles has lobbed in at 3120 to face 100 defenders :slight_smile: The heat has just been turned up on the naughty Dog lord.

While the dog lord was away… dog armies have moved to 3112 to wrestle the Northies for their town, Dragon lord forces have made 2711 to attack a Northy MT, and drag and Dog forces have made 2611, so a push seems to be beginning to materialise beyond Noldo. Wonder if what’s going on to the rear might have any bearing? :slight_smile:

Further north the stalemate around Goblin gate and further north to 2305 seems to be continuing. The entire western side of the map seems to be in grid lock with the open combats and conquests happening in the east…

Turn 6 results are in and the tide from the DS at last SEEMS to be slowing. For those unfamiliar with the ‘Untold War’ scenario, the DS start with a very strong position, with enormous military and recruit advantage in the south and centre, and the benefit of reinforcing through open plains and roadways as opposed to the Freep who have to tromp large distances through forests. The sum total of that to date is…

The Noldo route seems complete for now. With only 1200Archers startup against massive Dog Lord and Dragon Lord forces, as well as two huge FK armies has seen the capital 2514 captured, along with 3 towns at 2513 (now a Noldo camp) and 2314/2414 FK villages. Murazor revealed 2514 and moved on to reveal 2314 whereupon he was obliviated by an angry Noldo mage squad. That kinda slowed down the reveal thingy and the DS moved on.

The large DS armies rolled north to reinforce previous advances there, and have destroyed 2911 (formerly Northman MT), captured 2711 (also formerly Northman MT), and have now been pinned at 2609 and 2610.

Not much has happened north of that, with WK and various freep knocking each other out on the north road. Currently the dwarves are facing Ashdurbuk Zalg at 2605 with superior numbers.

In the far east the dog has taken the town at 3112.

With a lot of costly Dog troops away north, the Rohirrim have lodged armies at Morannon and Durthang now unopposed.

There’s been lots of fighting, and lots of armies mashed, and for the most part mutual annihilation other than where weaknesses inherent in the game setup have existed.

See what new turns bring…

… nothing!

The start-up was bad enough, now with the dragons killing our key-armies (and it was promised to us that there wouldn’t be so many available dragons) we will surrender.

Game over!

Have Fun!

Gixxx

If you only have archers, what are you going to do?
The elves in this scenario only have archers as their main forces.
Okay, Silvan got 4800 and I lost the half of them in a PC against Ji, but CC said that we had enough to burn this MT.

… but the 2x1200 archers for the Noldo are still a joke.

Have Fun!

Gixxx

Gixxx and I have been completely disillusioned with the Untold war scenario. The setup and complete lack of balances is boggling to say the least. But before I explain the poor nature of the game, I want to point out that the bad game setup casts no reflection on David and his team. They played their hand exceptionally, and were relentless in their advancement of their initiative. The advance was seamless and highly coordinated. Well done David and team and congratulations on – not so much a win because I don’t believe we’ve had a real challenge yet – but rather congratulations on very good play…
Firstly I’ll give a brief background of the ‘Untold War’. My advice is that the scenario was written as a research item. It is clear that it has not benefited from the extensive play testing that went into the other mainstream scenarios. The map is bounded by the 19 vertical line (basically a small zone west of the Misty mountains, and the 32 vertical (a hex beyond the extent of Mirkwood). In the north the map borders on the 02 horizontal so basically everything there, and in the south the 21 horizontal which takes in Morannon/Durthang and the Gap of Rohan.
The game will have either a 10,13 or 15 turn limit, accordingly the pops have been beefed up and the fortifications reduced. Victory is based on fixed VP conditions. 2715 is worth 500VP’s to the Freep, and 2514 500 to the DS. The major pops of each nation constitute a 250 VP bonus to the enemy, and an eliminated nation foregoes 500VP’s for the losing side. Lastly there are 5 x 100VP conditions for each nation. However due to the limited turn setup, the 100 VP conditions will not likely come into account unless there’s a stalemate (which is unlikely).
The strategic setup of the map sees 4 DS nations with exceptional defensive setups.
WK substantially enjoys an enemy choke point at 2405/2505.
FK enjoys a defensive choke point at 2409
White Wizard enjoys a defensive choke point at 2020.
All three then force the Freep to slog through single hex passes for multiple other hex advances. Effectively with the turn limits the freep can be shut out simply by blocking each successive hex advance.
Further – the Dog lord in his mountain holds has his core position a long way from the freep in N.Mordor so he also enjoys a very strong position.
For the Freep part, the dwarves enjoys a good defensive position in the NE pocket, not due to the inaccessibility of single hex advances, but by virtue of being so far from the fight no one is going to bother. If the dwarf sees attackers – the game’s over. That’s more of a curse because it halves the nation’s effectiveness in putting troops in the combat zones.
So the DS enjoy a VERY simple defensive position, whereas the Freep have many poorly fortified major populations right under the DS’ noses. In effect the Freep are forced to defend widespread and weak pops whereas the DS have comparatively very little risk.
In other scenarios the relative security imbalance of the two factions is offset by a strong advantage to the freep in bulk of pops and ability to send out armies. Not so in Untold war, it’s all too even.
With most nations right in the fight, reinforcements come from the Dog Lord and Dwarves primarily. The Dog lord enjoys wide open plains and roads on his advance to the front, the dwarves have to negotiate the full length of Mirkwood if they want to make it to the main fight for dominance in the centre of the board. Even with fed movement all the way Dwarves will take 4 turns march to reach Noldo lands whereas the Dog as was revealed to us can get armies there in 2 turns. In effect the scenario gives the equivalent of a 1650 result where the DS have wiped out the Sea of Rhun area. We’d all be familiar with the DS ability then to hurl armies right up the east side of Mirkwood in a move or two whereas the defenders plod along two hexes of forest at a go to try to respond. Always ends extremely badly for the Freep. This is a GAME SETUP condition, a benefit automatically provided, no different strategically to starting the game with Rhun already destroyed.
The Noldo represent a total of 1850 potential VP points, basically a game winner if you can take them out. Here’s a look at how the entire centre, and control of initiative packs down…
Noldo starts with 1200Archers at 2514. The city starts with a fort. Directly across the way the Dog starts with a city and a castle – a far greater advantage. So with two newly hired $5k armies the Noldo faced the DS onslaught on T3. The Dog Lord sent all his start-ups up the road which took 2 turns to arrive (the Noldo intercepted with the main force (which did little damage) and blocked him out for two turns which was ummm something :slight_smile:
The FK also sent a couple of ‘huge’ armies which in the end left him a little weak at home. He lost 2409 a MT/T to the dwarves, but that was basically the extent of the dwarven strength as well.
With the only startup freep recruit in the area of Carrock (3MT’s, 3T’s for the freep), the Northmen and Sylvan elves were never going to be able to send reinforcements to the Noldo, and with Rohan having to worry about a war on two fronts with White Wizard and a possible move by the Dog, he was never going to make the fight across the forest and hills and rough hexes in time by the time the Dog’s intentions were known. The Noldo was alone… It ran like this
Noldo Hired armies at 2413 and 2513 on Turn 1
2209
T2 – WW – 1300HI, 400LI arrived and ended Noldo recruiting, 2209 neutralised.

T3 – 2514 (and 500VP’s) revealed by Murazor
2615 Cirdan intercepted the Dog lord start-ups with the main Noldo force 1000HI, 600Ar
The dog had 1100HC, 600LC, 800HI, 400LI, 900Ar, 800MA.
Goblin King arrived at 2513 FK – 1129HI, 781LI, 781Ar, 781MA
T4 – 2514 Grashukh of the Drag arrived with 200LC, 3300HI, 900LI and faced 500HI, 500AR
2413 Uklurg of the FK brought 1100HI, 900LI, 900Ar, 900MA and attacked 600HI, 100Ar
Murazor revealed the hidden town at 2314 and was promptly cursed before he could reveal 2413. (This turned out to be a huge mistake and prevented the DS finishing the Noldo off)
The Noldo home area now with all pops apart from a city/- were revealed. That’s a city/F and 3 T/-‘s. Not much defensive capability there. So how did the balance of forces fall?
In the key VP’s area of the entire game, the DS enjoyed 1100HC, 800LC, 6329HI, 2981LI, 2581Ar, 2481MA or approximately 12100HI equivalent
The Noldo defence consisted of 2700HI, 1200Ar or 3300HI equivalent. The Noldo was outnumbered nearly 4 to 1 in terms of troops, and 2-3 to 1 in terms of recruit potential (and that doesn’t count for the overrun of pops).
With the Northmen engaged and losing pops they couldn’t even provide defensive armies for themselves let alone NOldo from gamestart, the Noldo received its first and only reinforcements from the dwarves 1700HI equivalent on turn 5. The 500VP capital of the Noldo had fallen, the unfortified towns at 2513 and 2314 had fallen, and 2314 had a huge FK army on it. All the other freep were fighting for their lives. The fight was done…
Elsewhere in our centre map…
The Sylvan MT at 2911 does not start with a defensive army, and nothing can make it there T1. A new army of 400HI was hired and immediately hosted a Dog lord startup force from 3014. Nothing we could do – 2911 fell. With the happenings at Noldo central, 2711 became exposed. We had to make an ugly choice – if another city fell in Noldo they would be eliminated, we simply couldn’t afford 16k/turn maintenance, so the dwarves moved from 2711 into Noldo lands. 2711 was taken.
Now with the Noldo wiped out, Rohan had become surrounded, and so too had the unfortified pop block around Carrock (2508). A stalemate had been fought out for the period of the Noldo demise, but with enormous enemy formations on the border, and dwarven and Silvan reinforcements a long march away beyond NE Mirkwood, there was nothing effectively to be done here either.
We played a gamble to stop the completely one sided initiative debacle of this game and the Rohan did just enough to fend off the White Wizard while schooling a blow for the Dog. The timing was perfect, the Dog had his eyes (and his armies) on the north. We cursed the Durthang army out of existence, and destroyed the defenders at Morannon sieging the pop (which was upgraded to a city during the siege – grrr). However it was not enough, and the Rohan was set to take out the Dog central lands. The Dwarves and Northmen of the east were ready (with Rohirric cav if necessary to take out the last Dog MT at 3014 and at last set us with a safe area to gather our strength from, but alas the momentum in the centre was too great by this point, with the MT’s around Carrock falling, and a whole mob of under employed DS launching into Rohan. I don’t think they would have taken Rohan, but with our entire centre surrendered to the enemy courtesy of a warped persons idea of a challenge, there was little we could do.
Untold war to us was not a challenge, and not a fight. It was a very poorly conceived and poorly balanced game that set the Freep with insurmountable odds from the outset. Adding the clear character advantages and dragons to the DS was just insult to injury particularly when our last offensive forces in the north 4000HI of the dwarves were roasted by a dragon leaving the WK free to attack into the NE.
Untold war in my estimation is not so much a ‘game with bugs’, it’s just a bug. The DS are handed far too many advantages. So long as the DS turn up – they’ll win. Any degree of competence tells the tale. This is not a game for a contest and the recognition of the better player. If you don’t want to spend your currency on play testing something that doesn’t work, better stick with main stream scenarios. 1650 scenario is an elegant and artistic piece of game balances in my opinion. I’ve looked at it from every point of view, and it’s a masterpiece. 1650 is everything that Untold War is not. I think given the game winning position in simple VP calcs that is represented by the demise of the Noldo, and the inability we had to support it (given the stalemates we were fighting elsewhere), it should be clear to most that the 12000 to 3000 combat ratio on unfortified population centres is a patently ridiculous waste of time and money. I can only say I’m deeply miffed to have played it.
All of that is to take nothing away from David’s team. They played their hand exceptionally, and were relentless in their pressure. I was very impressed with their play and hope that they will give us a new game in a REAL scenario. The difference is that they will have to fight for the initiative and I’m keen to see their mettle in the real struggle :slight_smile:

Gixxx and I have been completely disillusioned with the Untold war scenario. The setup and complete lack of balances is boggling to say the least. But before I explain the poor nature of the game, I want to point out that the bad game setup casts no reflection on David and his team. They played their hand exceptionally, and were relentless in their advancement of their initiative. The advance was seamless and highly coordinated. Well done David and team and congratulations on – not so much a win because I don’t believe we’ve had a real challenge yet – but rather congratulations on very good play…
Firstly I’ll give a brief background of the ‘Untold War’. My advice is that the scenario was written as a research item. It is clear that it has not benefited from the extensive play testing that went into the other mainstream scenarios. The map is bounded by the 19 vertical line (basically a small zone west of the Misty mountains, and the 32 vertical (a hex beyond the extent of Mirkwood). In the north the map borders on the 02 horizontal so basically everything there, and in the south the 21 horizontal which takes in Morannon/Durthang and the Gap of Rohan.
The game will have either a 10,13 or 15 turn limit, accordingly the pops have been beefed up and the fortifications reduced. Victory is based on fixed VP conditions. 2715 is worth 500VP’s to the Freep, and 2514 500 to the DS. The major pops of each nation constitute a 250 VP bonus to the enemy, and an eliminated nation foregoes 500VP’s for the losing side. Lastly there are 5 x 100VP conditions for each nation. However due to the limited turn setup, the 100 VP conditions will not likely come into account unless there’s a stalemate (which is unlikely).
The strategic setup of the map sees 4 DS nations with exceptional defensive setups.
WK substantially enjoys an enemy choke point at 2405/2505.
FK enjoys a defensive choke point at 2409
White Wizard enjoys a defensive choke point at 2020.
All three then force the Freep to slog through single hex passes for multiple other hex advances. Effectively with the turn limits the freep can be shut out simply by blocking each successive hex advance.
Further – the Dog lord in his mountain holds has his core position a long way from the freep in N.Mordor so he also enjoys a very strong position.
For the Freep part, the dwarves enjoys a good defensive position in the NE pocket, not due to the inaccessibility of single hex advances, but by virtue of being so far from the fight no one is going to bother. If the dwarf sees attackers – the game’s over. That’s more of a curse because it halves the nation’s effectiveness in putting troops in the combat zones.
So the DS enjoy a VERY simple defensive position, whereas the Freep have many poorly fortified major populations right under the DS’ noses. In effect the Freep are forced to defend widespread and weak pops whereas the DS have comparatively very little risk.
In other scenarios the relative security imbalance of the two factions is offset by a strong advantage to the freep in bulk of pops and ability to send out armies. Not so in Untold war, it’s all too even.
With most nations right in the fight, reinforcements come from the Dog Lord and Dwarves primarily. The Dog lord enjoys wide open plains and roads on his advance to the front, the dwarves have to negotiate the full length of Mirkwood if they want to make it to the main fight for dominance in the centre of the board. Even with fed movement all the way Dwarves will take 4 turns march to reach Noldo lands whereas the Dog as was revealed to us can get armies there in 2 turns. In effect the scenario gives the equivalent of a 1650 result where the DS have wiped out the Sea of Rhun area. We’d all be familiar with the DS ability then to hurl armies right up the east side of Mirkwood in a move or two whereas the defenders plod along two hexes of forest at a go to try to respond. Always ends extremely badly for the Freep. This is a GAME SETUP condition, a benefit automatically provided, no different strategically to starting the game with Rhun already destroyed.
The Noldo represent a total of 1850 potential VP points, basically a game winner if you can take them out. Here’s a look at how the entire centre, and control of initiative packs down…
Noldo starts with 1200Archers at 2514. The city starts with a fort. Directly across the way the Dog starts with a city and a castle – a far greater advantage. The Drag went after 2711 a Northy MT/T with no starting army for his first move (who wouldn’t? :-). So with two newly hired $5k armies the Noldo faced the DS onslaught on T3. The Dog Lord sent all his start-ups up the road which took 2 turns to arrive (the Noldo intercepted with the main force and blocked him out for two turns which was ummm something :slight_smile:
The FK also sent a couple of ‘huge’ armies which in the end left him a little weak at home. He lost 2409 a MT/T to the dwarves, but that was basically the extent of the dwarven strength as well.
With the only startup freep recruit in the area of Carrock (3MT’s, 3T’s for the freep), the Northmen and Sylvan elves were never going to be able to send reinforcements to the Noldo, and with Rohan having to worry about a war on two fronts with White Wizard and a possible move by the Dog, he was never going to make the fight across the forest and hills and rough hexes in time by the time the Dog’s intentions were known. The Noldo was alone… It ran like this
Noldo Hired armies at 2413 and 2513 on Turn 1
2209
T2 – WW – 1300HI, 400LI arrived and ended Noldo recruiting, 2209 neutralised.

T3 – 2514 (and 500VP’s) revealed by Murazor
2615 Cirdan intercepted the Dog lord start-ups with the main Noldo force 1000HI, 600Ar
The dog had 1100HC, 600LC, 800HI, 400LI, 900Ar, 800MA.
Goblin King arrived at 2513 FK – 1129HI, 781LI, 781Ar, 781MA
T4 – 2514 Grashukh of the Drag arrived with 200LC, 3300HI, 900LI and faced 500HI, 500AR
2413 Uklurg of the FK brought 1100HI, 900LI, 900Ar, 900MA and attacked 600HI, 100Ar
Murazor revealed the hidden town at 2314 and was promptly cursed before he could reveal 2413. (This turned out to be a huge mistake and prevented the DS finishing the Noldo off)
The Noldo home area now with all pops apart from a city/- were revealed. That’s a city/F and 3 T/-‘s. Not much defensive capability there. So how did the balance of forces fall?
In the key VP’s area of the entire game, the DS enjoyed 1100HC, 800LC, 6329HI, 2981LI, 2581Ar, 2481MA or approximately 12100HI equivalent
The Noldo defence consisted of 2700HI, 1200Ar or 3300HI equivalent. The Noldo was outnumbered nearly 4 to 1 in terms of troops, and 2-3 to 1 in terms of recruit potential (and that doesn’t count for the overrun of pops).
With the Northmen engaged and losing pops they couldn’t even provide defensive armies for from gamestart, the Noldo received its first and only reinforcements from the dwarves 1700HI equivalent on turn 5. The 500VP capital of the Noldo had fallen, the unfortified towns at 2513 and 2314 had fallen, and 2314 had a huge FK army on it. All the other freep were fighting for their lives. The fight was done…
Elsewhere in our centre map…
The Sylvan MT at 2911 does not start with a defensive army, and nothing can make it there T1. A new army of 400HI was hired and immediately hosted a Dog lord startup force from 3014. Nothing we could do – 2911 fell. With the happenings at Noldo central, 2711 became exposed. We had to make an ugly choice – if another city fell in Noldo they would be eliminated, we simply couldn’t afford 16k/turn maintenance, so the dwarves moved from 2711 into Noldo lands. 2711 was taken.
Now with the Noldo wiped out, Rohan had become surrounded, and so too had the unfortified pop block around Carrock (2508). A stalemate had been fought out for the period of the Noldo demise, but with enormous enemy formations on the border, and dwarven and Silvan reinforcements a long march away beyond NE Mirkwood, there was nothing effectively to be done here either.
We played a gamble to stop the completely one sided initiative debacle of this game and the Rohan did just enough to fend off the White Wizard while schooling a blow for the Dog. The timing was perfect, the Dog had his eyes (and his armies) on the north. We cursed the Durthang army out of existence, and destroyed the defenders at Morannon sieging the pop (which was upgraded to a city during the siege – grrr). However it was not enough, and the Rohan was set to take out the Dog central lands. The Dwarves and Northmen of the east were ready (with Rohirric cav if necessary to take out the last Dog MT at 3014 and at last set us with a safe area to gather our strength from, but alas the momentum in the centre was too great by this point, with the MT’s around Carrock falling, and a whole mob of under employed DS launching into Rohan. I don’t think they would have taken Rohan, but with our entire centre surrendered to the enemy courtesy of a warped persons idea of a challenge, there was little we could do.
Untold war to us was not a challenge, and not a fight. It was a very poorly conceived and poorly balanced game that set the Freep with insurmountable odds from the outset. Adding the clear character advantages and dragons to the DS was just insult to injury particularly when our last offensive forces in the north 4000HI of the dwarves were roasted by a dragon leaving the WK free to attack into the NE.
Untold war in my estimation is not so much a ‘game with bugs’, it’s just a bug. The DS are handed far too many advantages. So long as the DS turn up – they’ll win. Any degree of competence tells the tale. This is not a game for a contest and the recognition of the better player. If you don’t want to spend your currency on play testing something that doesn’t work, better stick with main stream scenarios. 1650 scenario is an elegant and artistic piece of game balances in my opinion. I’ve looked at it from every point of view, and it’s a masterpiece. 1650 is everything that Untold War is not. I think given the game winning position in simple VP calcs that is represented by the demise of the Noldo, and the inability we had to support it (given the stalemates we were fighting elsewhere), it should be clear to most that the 12000 to 3000 combat ratio on unfortified population centres is a patently ridiculous waste of time and money. I can only say I’m deeply miffed to have played it.
All of that is to take nothing away from David’s team. They played their hand exceptionally, and were relentless in their pressure. I was very impressed with their play and hope that they will give us a new game in a REAL scenario. The difference is that they will have to fight for the initiative and I’m keen to see their mettle in the real struggle :slight_smile: