Game Balance

mepbmlist
#1

People keep going on about game balance favouring the DS. Facade states
that anyone who has ever recruited a dragon is a cheat, and a figure of 66%
DS wins is constantly being quoted.....

Personally I am getting fed up with it, I'm not going to stay silent any
longer, and I say that that is a complete load of crap.

If every statement that Facade & Co has made was correct, then every half
competent DS would win every Team game.
Just to avoid confusion, the term "Team Game" may be read as "Grudge Game"
for those of you more familiar with that term.

Now I play Middle Earth to have fun, but I won't flog a dead horse either.
For me to play a position it must be fun and viable (there has been an
exception to this, but that was a team game, and I won't deliberately let
down teammates). I have only dropped from games twice because they failed
to meet those criteria.

I have played the FP in team games on more than one occasion, and the
opposition was always considered competent (If they weren't then it
wouldn't have been a fun game, and I play for fun), in all of those games
the FP won.

What wins ME games is co-operation and good use of the resourses available.

The DS do not have the recruitment base that the FP have, and without the
occasional dragon would be totally overwhelmed by the FP armies. Without
Dragons Rhudaur would never be a fun position to play as DS. The FP start
the game with a disadvantage in agents, but they are quite capable of
naming some.

Whist playing ME I have heard several statements about requirements about
wining such as "For the FP to win, they must break into Mordor by turn 10",
but I have seen games where the FP have broken into Mordor early and lost,
and others where they haven't done so but won. So such statements can be
ignored as false.

Recently adjustments were made to agent actions which has made an impact on
the game, in the early stages this favours the FP.
Quoting statistics such the DS win 66% of all games is now irrelevant as
until enough games have been played which have started and ended since the
agent adjustments. I suspect that any such statistics will now favour the FP.
I don't think that good players play the DS for an "Easy win", good players
seem to prefer the character game, OK but you may say that the Noldo are a
character position, the problem is that the Noldo characters are just too
good which actually makes it a little boring.
The agents tweaks will make the DS even more attractive to good players as
they will see it as even more of a challenge. The question is whether
having the better players on the DS side will compensate for the reduction
of early DS agent power?
Before the agent tweaks were made, I would have agreed that the game
favours the DS, but not now, although I think that a number of people will
still argue that this or that must be done to the game, but as they say you
can only please some of the people some of the time.....

Nick.

#2

People keep going on about game balance favouring the DS. Facade

states

that anyone who has ever recruited a dragon is a cheat, and a

figure of 66%

DS wins is constantly being quoted.....

I have never stated that. I personally think chasing dragons is a
cheap and lame way to win. Recruiting the odd dragon is part of the
game. Actively setting up your nation to recruit as many dragons as
possible by using the cheat lists is another matter entirely. I
personally would not play this way since it is abusing a game flaw to
achieve a victory. To date I have never fought one single battle with
a dragon in an army of mine and have had no trouble stomping army
after army and opponent after opponent. It, however, is only my
opinion that using dragons to the nth degree is unsportmanlike play.
It is a fact though that dragons were not meant to be an endless tool
for the DS and have become so due to the unforseen effect of the
internet.

Personally I am getting fed up with it, I'm not going to stay

silent any

longer, and I say that that is a complete load of crap.

If every statement that Facade & Co has made was correct, then

every half

competent DS would win every Team game.

Grudge games don't mean squat. Just because they are 'team' games
doesn't mean the people playing play as a team or are even
experienced quality players. There's nothing to suggest, that I have
heard, that the 'team' games win/loss % is any different then
standard games. Of course I don't have access to all the data. DGE
did... if the belief that the scenarios were unbalanced was wrong I
am very sure DGE would have posted the proof to dispel the belief. It
was in their best interest to have their players feeling that you can
win playing either side. The fact that they never did this speaks
volumes. The fact they felt they had to tweak agents supports the
idea they knew the scenarios were out of balance.

What wins ME games is co-operation and good use of the resourses

available.

This is true. If the Free play this way, and are playing a DS squad
that does not, then they are probably going to win. If both teams
play this way then the Free, unless they get brilliant play from the
beginning of the game from the Gondors and the Eothraim, are going to
lose far more often then they win.

Recently adjustments were made to agent actions which has made an

impact on

the game, in the early stages this favours the FP.

The agent tweaks meant to help the Free have failed and in fact have
hurt the Free very badly. It is now even easier to win as the DS then
it was before the tweaks. I know DS players gripe and moan when they
fail kills early in the game and they think gee this stinks. And by
all means limiting the agent factor in the first few turns does favor
the Free, briefly. But what these players fail to understand is that
while this change hurts the DS in the first few turns it helps them
greatly for the rest of the game! All the changes did was raise the
bar on what ranks were needed to kill/kidnap. Effectively putting off
the time where agents take over the game. Why does this hurt the
Free? Because it takes so much longer for the Free to be able to
fight back with agents now. If you assume a rank of 80 is now needed
to be reasonably effective against army commanders you see the
problem. It doesn't take very long to work a Cloud Lord agent from 40
to 60 (effective 80). Now compare the time it takes to work a Free
agent from 30 to 80 and you see the problem. There is a very large
window where the DS have a lot of effective agents and the Free have
very few. In this window games are decided.

Obviously all games don't play out the same. The Free can and do win.
However you can not simply dismiss the very clear trends over years
of play that suggest that the DS have the advantage.

facade

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Nick Barnes <mearth@n...> wrote:

#3

Where has this rumor started about "recent" tweaks
to agents? I've heard it from several players.
GSI has stated that they have made no such tweaks
for at least two years.

Jeremy

People keep going on about game balance favouring the DS. Facade

states

that anyone who has ever recruited a dragon is a cheat, and a figure

of 66%

DS wins is constantly being quoted.....

Personally I am getting fed up with it, I'm not going to stay silent

any

longer, and I say that that is a complete load of crap.

If every statement that Facade & Co has made was correct, then every

half

competent DS would win every Team game.
Just to avoid confusion, the term "Team Game" may be read as "Grudge

Game"

for those of you more familiar with that term.

Now I play Middle Earth to have fun, but I won't flog a dead horse

either.

For me to play a position it must be fun and viable (there has been

an

exception to this, but that was a team game, and I won't

deliberately let

down teammates). I have only dropped from games twice because they

failed

to meet those criteria.

I have played the FP in team games on more than one occasion, and

the

opposition was always considered competent (If they weren't then it
wouldn't have been a fun game, and I play for fun), in all of those

games

the FP won.

What wins ME games is co-operation and good use of the resourses

available.

The DS do not have the recruitment base that the FP have, and

without the

occasional dragon would be totally overwhelmed by the FP armies.

Without

Dragons Rhudaur would never be a fun position to play as DS. The FP

start

the game with a disadvantage in agents, but they are quite capable

of

naming some.

Whist playing ME I have heard several statements about requirements

about

wining such as "For the FP to win, they must break into Mordor by

turn 10",

but I have seen games where the FP have broken into Mordor early and

lost,

and others where they haven't done so but won. So such statements

can be

ignored as false.

Recently adjustments were made to agent actions which has made an

impact on

the game, in the early stages this favours the FP.
Quoting statistics such the DS win 66% of all games is now

irrelevant as

until enough games have been played which have started and ended

since the

agent adjustments. I suspect that any such statistics will now

favour the FP.

I don't think that good players play the DS for an "Easy win", good

players

seem to prefer the character game, OK but you may say that the Noldo

are a

character position, the problem is that the Noldo characters are

just too

good which actually makes it a little boring.
The agents tweaks will make the DS even more attractive to good

players as

they will see it as even more of a challenge. The question is

whether

having the better players on the DS side will compensate for the

reduction

of early DS agent power?
Before the agent tweaks were made, I would have agreed that the game
favours the DS, but not now, although I think that a number of

people will

still argue that this or that must be done to the game, but as they

say you

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Nick Barnes <mearth@n...> wrote:

can only please some of the people some of the time.....

Nick.

#4

As someone pointed out earlier, in grudge games the
FP are much more successful than in "regular" games.
The conclusion to draw is not dissimilar from your
statement, namely that it takes top-level teamwork
for the FP to win. The 2/3 DS victory tote shows
that in non-grudge games, that level of teamwork is
hard to forge from a bunch of smaller teams and
individual players.

Dragons and Agents are leveling effects on skill.
The old adage, "You don't have to be good, you only
have to be lucky" in ME could translate to,
"you don't have to be good, you only need dragons
and agents". That's the problem with these assets.

Jeremy

People keep going on about game balance favouring the DS. Facade

states

that anyone who has ever recruited a dragon is a cheat, and a figure

of 66%

DS wins is constantly being quoted.....

Personally I am getting fed up with it, I'm not going to stay silent

any

longer, and I say that that is a complete load of crap.

If every statement that Facade & Co has made was correct, then every

half

competent DS would win every Team game.
Just to avoid confusion, the term "Team Game" may be read as "Grudge

Game"

for those of you more familiar with that term.

Now I play Middle Earth to have fun, but I won't flog a dead horse

either.

For me to play a position it must be fun and viable (there has been

an

exception to this, but that was a team game, and I won't

deliberately let

down teammates). I have only dropped from games twice because they

failed

to meet those criteria.

I have played the FP in team games on more than one occasion, and

the

opposition was always considered competent (If they weren't then it
wouldn't have been a fun game, and I play for fun), in all of those

games

the FP won.

What wins ME games is co-operation and good use of the resourses

available.

The DS do not have the recruitment base that the FP have, and

without the

occasional dragon would be totally overwhelmed by the FP armies.

Without

Dragons Rhudaur would never be a fun position to play as DS. The FP

start

the game with a disadvantage in agents, but they are quite capable

of

naming some.

Whist playing ME I have heard several statements about requirements

about

wining such as "For the FP to win, they must break into Mordor by

turn 10",

but I have seen games where the FP have broken into Mordor early and

lost,

and others where they haven't done so but won. So such statements

can be

ignored as false.

Recently adjustments were made to agent actions which has made an

impact on

the game, in the early stages this favours the FP.
Quoting statistics such the DS win 66% of all games is now

irrelevant as

until enough games have been played which have started and ended

since the

agent adjustments. I suspect that any such statistics will now

favour the FP.

I don't think that good players play the DS for an "Easy win", good

players

seem to prefer the character game, OK but you may say that the Noldo

are a

character position, the problem is that the Noldo characters are

just too

good which actually makes it a little boring.
The agents tweaks will make the DS even more attractive to good

players as

they will see it as even more of a challenge. The question is

whether

having the better players on the DS side will compensate for the

reduction

of early DS agent power?
Before the agent tweaks were made, I would have agreed that the game
favours the DS, but not now, although I think that a number of

people will

still argue that this or that must be done to the game, but as they

say you

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Nick Barnes <mearth@n...> wrote:

can only please some of the people some of the time.....

Nick.

#5

The geographical nature of Mordor encourages those nation to co-
operate more, however I generally find that once players have played
a couple of games they recognise that cooperation is required to win
no matter what side they are playing on.
Personally I always try to play every game as a team game whether it
is or not. Sometimes this means that I'll finish with a high number
of VP's and sometimes not.
Everyone plays the game in a different way, some play for an
individual win, some for their allegiance.
The single truth is that no matter how good an individual player is,
no matter how many VP's they accrue, they cannot win unless their
side does and as long as the players recognise this it will lead to a
balanced and enjoyable game, which I hope is what we are all after.

Nick.

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:

As someone pointed out earlier, in grudge games the
FP are much more successful than in "regular" games.
The conclusion to draw is not dissimilar from your
statement, namely that it takes top-level teamwork
for the FP to win. The 2/3 DS victory tote shows
that in non-grudge games, that level of teamwork is
hard to forge from a bunch of smaller teams and
individual players.

#6

I think that sums up how I feel about it nicely.

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
JeremyRichman@compuserve.com

To: mepbmlist@egroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 9:29 AM

Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Game Balance

`As someone pointed out earlier, in grudge games the
FP are much more successful than in “regular” games.
The conclusion to draw is not dissimilar from your
statement, namely that it takes top-level teamwork
for the FP to win. The 2/3 DS victory tote shows
that in non-grudge games, that level of teamwork is
hard to forge from a bunch of smaller teams and
individual players.

Dragons and Agents are leveling effects on skill.
The old adage, “You don’t have to be good, you only
have to be lucky” in ME could translate to,
“you don’t have to be good, you only need dragons
and agents”. That’s the problem with these assets.

Jeremy
`

#7

Thanks -- a kindred spirit<g>.

I will say one thing that is usually overlooked
in FP play. I have played the Noldo a two or
three times (can't remember) and each time my
major priority has been to get Elrond stacked
with artifacts so he can kill dragons.

It has always taken me until about turn 13-15
to accomplish this. Finding the dragons by then
is quite easy, and he usually knocks off one every
turn or so.

As it turns out, my efforts have always been
unnecessary because in those games the FP
have secured victory by turn 20 or so, and/or
that the DS were (apparently) too inexperienced
to try to recruit the dragons. (I only wish it
were otherwise; I was looking forward to seeing
the fruits of my labors).

I think that if all Noldo players made this their
priority, then in the games that last longer the
DS would be robbed of their dragon advantage and
be reduced to just their agent advantage.

But of course most Noldo players don't think
to do this.

Jeremy Richman

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...> wrote:

I think that sums up how I feel about it nicely.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: JeremyRichman@c...
  To: mepbmlist@egroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 9:29 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Game Balance

  As someone pointed out earlier, in grudge games the
  FP are much more successful than in "regular" games.
  The conclusion to draw is not dissimilar from your
  statement, namely that it takes top-level teamwork
  for the FP to win. The 2/3 DS victory tote shows
  that in non-grudge games, that level of teamwork is
  hard to forge from a bunch of smaller teams and
  individual players.

  Dragons and Agents are leveling effects on skill.
  The old adage, "You don't have to be good, you only
  have to be lucky" in ME could translate to,
  "you don't have to be good, you only need dragons
  and agents". That's the problem with these assets.

  Jeremy

#8

I didn’t realize that the dragons were killable, I’d never heard

of anyone killing one prior to this. What sort of challenge

rank do you have to hit to do this?

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
JeremyRichman@compuserve.com

To: mepbmlist@egroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 10:35 PM

Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Game Balance

`Thanks – a kindred spirit.

I will say one thing that is usually overlooked
in FP play. I have played the Noldo a two or
three times (can’t remember) and each time my
major priority has been to get Elrond stacked
with artifacts so he can kill dragons.

It has always taken me until about turn 13-15
to accomplish this. Finding the dragons by then
is quite easy, and he usually knocks off one every
turn or so.

As it turns out, my efforts have always been
unnecessary because in those games the FP
have secured victory by turn 20 or so, and/or
that the DS were (apparently) too inexperienced
to try to recruit the dragons. (I only wish it
were otherwise; I was looking forward to seeing
the fruits of my labors).

I think that if all Noldo players made this their
priority, then in the games that last longer the
DS would be robbed of their dragon advantage and
be reduced to just their agent advantage.

But of course most Noldo players don’t think
to do this.

Jeremy Richman

`

#9

I don't know for sure what challenge rank they are.
I would always get Elrond up to about 300 or more
challenge. In addition I try to get him artifact #127
which has as one of its abilities "helps against
dragons" -- according to unsubstantiated rumor, this
means doubling its value when used in an encounter/challenge
vs. a dragon. (There are several other anti-dragon
artifacts but I've always settled on this one.)

I accomplish the challenge by waiting around for
Galadriel and Gandalf to start showing up at
someone's pc and when they do, send agents to
steal their artifacts. Galadriel has
a +50 ring and a +40 mirror and Gandalf has a
+50 ring. Elrond starts out at about a +160
challenge (I seem to remember) so those items
plus switching his combat artifact for #127 (gotta
go get it) puts him in the right neighborhood.

Jeremy

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...> wrote:

I didn't realize that the dragons were killable, I'd never heard
of anyone killing one prior to this. What sort of challenge
rank do you have to hit to do this?

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: JeremyRichman@c...
  To: mepbmlist@egroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 10:35 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Game Balance

  Thanks -- a kindred spirit<g>.

  I will say one thing that is usually overlooked
  in FP play. I have played the Noldo a two or
  three times (can't remember) and each time my
  major priority has been to get Elrond stacked
  with artifacts so he can kill dragons.

  It has always taken me until about turn 13-15
  to accomplish this. Finding the dragons by then
  is quite easy, and he usually knocks off one every
  turn or so.

  As it turns out, my efforts have always been
  unnecessary because in those games the FP
  have secured victory by turn 20 or so, and/or
  that the DS were (apparently) too inexperienced
  to try to recruit the dragons. (I only wish it
  were otherwise; I was looking forward to seeing
  the fruits of my labors).

  I think that if all Noldo players made this their
  priority, then in the games that last longer the
  DS would be robbed of their dragon advantage and
  be reduced to just their agent advantage.

  But of course most Noldo players don't think
  to do this.

  Jeremy Richman

#10

I forgot to mention. Equipped as described below,
my Elrond's have fought over 10 dragons and never
taken even a point of damage.

Jeremy Richman

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, JeremyRichman@c... wrote:

I don't know for sure what challenge rank they are.
I would always get Elrond up to about 300 or more
challenge. In addition I try to get him artifact #127
which has as one of its abilities "helps against
dragons" -- according to unsubstantiated rumor, this
means doubling its value when used in an encounter/challenge
vs. a dragon. (There are several other anti-dragon
artifacts but I've always settled on this one.)

I accomplish the challenge by waiting around for
Galadriel and Gandalf to start showing up at
someone's pc and when they do, send agents to
steal their artifacts. Galadriel has
a +50 ring and a +40 mirror and Gandalf has a
+50 ring. Elrond starts out at about a +160
challenge (I seem to remember) so those items
plus switching his combat artifact for #127 (gotta
go get it) puts him in the right neighborhood.

Jeremy

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, "Alan Hamilton" <jhamil00@h...> wrote:
> I didn't realize that the dragons were killable, I'd never heard
> of anyone killing one prior to this. What sort of challenge
> rank do you have to hit to do this?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: JeremyRichman@c...
> To: mepbmlist@egroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 10:35 PM
> Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Game Balance
>
>
> Thanks -- a kindred spirit<g>.
>
> I will say one thing that is usually overlooked
> in FP play. I have played the Noldo a two or
> three times (can't remember) and each time my
> major priority has been to get Elrond stacked
> with artifacts so he can kill dragons.
>
> It has always taken me until about turn 13-15
> to accomplish this. Finding the dragons by then
> is quite easy, and he usually knocks off one every
> turn or so.
>
> As it turns out, my efforts have always been
> unnecessary because in those games the FP
> have secured victory by turn 20 or so, and/or
> that the DS were (apparently) too inexperienced
> to try to recruit the dragons. (I only wish it
> were otherwise; I was looking forward to seeing
> the fruits of my labors).
>
> I think that if all Noldo players made this their
> priority, then in the games that last longer the
> DS would be robbed of their dragon advantage and
> be reduced to just their agent advantage.
>
> But of course most Noldo players don't think
> to do this.
>
> Jeremy Richman

#11

Um - we have information for the UK games that Agents were improved
guarding. So for example we noticed that the Cloud Lord was getting as many
kills (all other factors being equal).

Clint

···

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----- Original Message -----
From: <JeremyRichman@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:23 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Game Balance

Where has this rumor started about "recent" tweaks
to agents? I've heard it from several players.
GSI has stated that they have made no such tweaks
for at least two years.

Jeremy

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Nick Barnes <mearth@n...> wrote:
> People keep going on about game balance favouring the DS. Facade
states
> that anyone who has ever recruited a dragon is a cheat, and a figure
of 66%
> DS wins is constantly being quoted.....
>
> Personally I am getting fed up with it, I'm not going to stay silent
any
> longer, and I say that that is a complete load of crap.
>
> If every statement that Facade & Co has made was correct, then every
half
> competent DS would win every Team game.
> Just to avoid confusion, the term "Team Game" may be read as "Grudge
Game"
> for those of you more familiar with that term.
>
> Now I play Middle Earth to have fun, but I won't flog a dead horse
either.
> For me to play a position it must be fun and viable (there has been
an
> exception to this, but that was a team game, and I won't
deliberately let
> down teammates). I have only dropped from games twice because they
failed
> to meet those criteria.
>
> I have played the FP in team games on more than one occasion, and
the
> opposition was always considered competent (If they weren't then it
> wouldn't have been a fun game, and I play for fun), in all of those
games
> the FP won.
>
> What wins ME games is co-operation and good use of the resourses
available.
>
> The DS do not have the recruitment base that the FP have, and
without the
> occasional dragon would be totally overwhelmed by the FP armies.
Without
> Dragons Rhudaur would never be a fun position to play as DS. The FP
start
> the game with a disadvantage in agents, but they are quite capable
of
> naming some.
>
> Whist playing ME I have heard several statements about requirements
about
> wining such as "For the FP to win, they must break into Mordor by
turn 10",
> but I have seen games where the FP have broken into Mordor early and
lost,
> and others where they haven't done so but won. So such statements
can be
> ignored as false.
>
> Recently adjustments were made to agent actions which has made an
impact on
> the game, in the early stages this favours the FP.
> Quoting statistics such the DS win 66% of all games is now
irrelevant as
> until enough games have been played which have started and ended
since the
> agent adjustments. I suspect that any such statistics will now
favour the FP.
> I don't think that good players play the DS for an "Easy win", good
players
> seem to prefer the character game, OK but you may say that the Noldo
are a
> character position, the problem is that the Noldo characters are
just too
> good which actually makes it a little boring.
> The agents tweaks will make the DS even more attractive to good
players as
> they will see it as even more of a challenge. The question is
whether
> having the better players on the DS side will compensate for the
reduction
> of early DS agent power?
> Before the agent tweaks were made, I would have agreed that the game
> favours the DS, but not now, although I think that a number of
people will
> still argue that this or that must be done to the game, but as they
say you
> can only please some of the people some of the time.....
>
> Nick.

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