Game Modifications

[BBrunet]

How about starting the line of thinking towards actual realistic things that can be done.

You know, the type of thing that Clint has been so patiently reminding us of over and
over again, as we ramble and babble on about ohhhhh so much else...?

1-Starting Character Abilities (closer to ICE MERP realism..?)
2-Nation Special Abilities (Racially differentiated..?)
3-Troop Terrain Modifiers (Archers in the plains...LI in the rough...?)
4-New Capital Orders (Clint mentioned a 946...?)
5-New Spells (Someone had some interesting ideas..?)
6-Moving the Map
7-Caravan movement costs
8-Skill increase adjustments (more for harder orders..?)
9-Agent/Guard adjustments
10-Troop Racial Modifiers (Combat worth AND recruiting allowances)
11-Randomized encounter/dragon responses
12-Randomized Pop Center placement
13-Recruitable NPC's

We have been asked for input on a "questionnaire" of sorts. Well, let's see what we can
throw out, and then a 'questionnaire' can get sent out to every single player. Serious
customer feedback, just in time to either re-tool the game we have, or press for a
redesigned new edition, Advanced MEPBM (which I would not qualify to play...) or something
altogether new that can be thrown together and set up as a special game.....

It's about now where a relatively detailed summary of what Harlequin CAN and CANNOT do
would be useful, to help keep us on track.

Personally quite content with the game, as I am years removed from thinking I know enough
to suggest serious change. But, I am confident in my ability to recognize silliness when I
read it out of my 39 messages in 4 hours.................

Regards,

Brad Brunet

···

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[Laurence_G_Tilley]

1-Starting Character Abilities (closer to ICE MERP realism..?)

No objection, but you don't need to use ICE MERP as a source. Just look
at the starting characters as they are, and alter the stats to make them
more interesting or more balanced.

2-Nation Special Abilities (Racially differentiated..?)

I think this is a goer, but I don't think we've seen may good ideas yet.
We can alter the stealth - automatic stealth for all elves? But what
else. Health I suppose is worth looking at - the Dunedain were beefy.
Is it consistent that all characters of all races have 100 health?

3-Troop Terrain Modifiers (Archers in the plains...LI in the rough...?)

Yes. Troops and battles in general. 3 troop types Cav, Inf, and
Archers (simplifies). Rationalised armouring orders (simplifies). More
severe terrain modifiers (no change, computer deals with it). More
severe tactics vs. troop type modifiers (no change, computer deals with
it) perhaps with the statistics known.

9-Agent/Guard adjustments

Yup. BIG one, which nobody has dealt with yet, but which often comes up
in games. Guarding needs to be more effective, and interesting.

10-Troop Racial Modifiers (Combat worth AND recruiting allowances)

I think this is tricky due to balance. Unless you keep it strictly
decorative. If an orc is twice as strong as a woodman, then you can
recruit 500 woodmen at a city or 250 orcs at a city in Mordor. So what.
I'll reserve my interest on this one, till someone gives some clear
balanced ideas.

11-Randomized encounter/dragon responses

Yes. A MUCH larger database of encounters. A free turn if you write a
good encounter to add to an ever growing database. A player + GM
moderating group to determine which new encounters are accepted.

12-Randomized Pop Center placement

The main pops need to be fixed, or you're into a batty non-Tolkien mess
a.k.a. 4th Age.

We have been asked for input on a "questionnaire" of sorts. Well, let's see
what we can
throw out, and then a 'questionnaire' can get sent out to every single player.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Please no questionnaire. It's much too
early for that. You need hundreds of hours of work from someone (whom
we don't have yet) to write up a set of well worked, and clear proposals
before you reduce it to a show of hands.

Regards,

Laurence G. Tilley http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk/

···

bgbrunet <ditletang@canada.com> wrote

[Imrazor]

Hi everyone.

I have been playing MEPBM for mearly a year and a half (which
isn't "short", but which means not so many games :), so I can't claim
to know all what is good and what is bad with MEPBM.

However, while I can certainly understand the enthusiasm over a
possibility to develop and enhance the game, I think it is wise not
to over do it.
No doubt there has been quite alot of thought and gametesting on
behalf of the original makers, and implementing too many major
changes are IMHO likely to fail.

I think that while discussing various improvements can always be
productive, it is still best to apply some restraint when making
changes to avoid chaos.

I know from experience that people always want to change things.
Everyone has their own opinion on how things should be and how things
should work. I think it would be safe to say that it will never be
possible to create a version which pleases all types of players, no
matter for how long we discuss or how many changes are implemented.
This is not the same as to say that no change at all is better, I'm
just saying that sometimes it is better to take small steps at a
time, and see where it takes you.

Johan

[Din]

--- johan.nilson@mailbox.swipnet.se wrote: > Hi
everyone.

I have been playing MEPBM for mearly a year and a
half (which
isn't "short", but which means not so many games :),
so I can't claim
to know all what is good and what is bad with MEPBM.

However, while I can certainly understand the
enthusiasm over a
possibility to develop and enhance the game, I think
it is wise not
to over do it.

actually someone said it very well when they talked
about being pratical. Middle earth is a program that
has been running for many years. That means someone
needs to go into the program and change the internal
logic of what is going on. Old programs are a bum to
look at. And programmers charge a decent amount of
money (its would be easier for Clint to see if Suart
could do the changes in-house).

I think its unlikely that Clint will allocate decent
resources to a major redo of the M/E code (I want my
BOTP turnsheet to still come out clint). So I reckon
most of this is just pie-in-the-sky stuff.

But we can dream. And who knows, some of the stuff
might be easy to do.

thanks
din

···

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[lucas_cuccia]

Hi,
First of all the game is not in its first form. The market module has
changed alot. Remeber how dragons ask for 100,000 gold. In the old
market that was chump change. One of the limits put was a nation max
sale. Say around turn 10 you have enough of the 7 products in your
capital that if you issued the Sell to Caravans, as opposed to Nat
Sell which happens later, that each sale would generate 40000 gold or
280000 total. Who that be your gold reserve. No, the program as a
limiting factor only allows x gold sales to be generated. It was not
like that in the old computer. Ever see food 10/7. I have only when
the 10 people left (6fp/4ds) each had 200000+ reserves. GSI has made
minor changes over the years.

One of the reasons for the current crusade is that Harlequinn might be
interested in making the changes. GSI never would have considered the
thought. With GSI you had take it or leave it. On the whole and in
concept the game is great. I love that 10 people (usually some as
strangers) need to coordinate. That come right out of the Council of
Elrond. How more Tolkien can you get.

People keep looking at the changes I have proposed as game altering.
If somebody can properly plan a turn in a 2 week(normal) time period,
shame on you. The two weeks was original to account for snail mail.
With the vast majority of the players having email, we now have 12 day
to work on a turn as opposed to 6 with just snail mail.
--- In mepbmlist@y..., johan.nilson@m... wrote:

···

Hi everyone.

I have been playing MEPBM for mearly a year and a half (which
isn't "short", but which means not so many games :), so I can't claim
to know all what is good and what is bad with MEPBM.

However, while I can certainly understand the enthusiasm over a
possibility to develop and enhance the game, I think it is wise not
to over do it.
No doubt there has been quite alot of thought and gametesting on
behalf of the original makers, and implementing too many major
changes are IMHO likely to fail.

I think that while discussing various improvements can always be
productive, it is still best to apply some restraint when making
changes to avoid chaos.

I know from experience that people always want to change things.
Everyone has their own opinion on how things should be and how things
should work. I think it would be safe to say that it will never be
possible to create a version which pleases all types of players, no
matter for how long we discuss or how many changes are implemented.
This is not the same as to say that no change at all is better, I'm
just saying that sometimes it is better to take small steps at a
time, and see where it takes you.

Johan

[Harlequin_Games1]

I don't know what can be done (we don't have access to the code). But I
have an understanding of what there is at present. The feeling I am getting
so far is that; Change would be good - Troops, Spells, Items, Encounters the
main bone of contention with a split on 947/8 orders.

Realism good but not at the cost of playablitiy.

1-Starting Character Abilities (closer to ICE MERP realism..?)

Who has the rights to these?

2-Nation Special Abilities (Racially differentiated..?)

Very much interested in "cheesing" up the nations

3-Troop Terrain Modifiers (Archers in the plains...LI in the rough...?)

*** Yes

4-New Capital Orders (Clint mentioned a 946...?)

(*** or new orders in general - Rob Pegg mentioned the 946 order I think)

5-New Spells (Someone had some interesting ideas..?)

*** Lots of variety here

6-Moving the Map

*** Can't see why this cannot be implemented in 1650

7-Caravan movement costs

*** Not a fan of this myself as it would slow the game and change it a lot -
normally you get a last minute panicy - "I lost my capital/army when I
wasn't expecting it now I am in a very bad way and need assistance NOW" type
message - it's hard to guess what situation you'll be in at the end of the
turn never mind two turns down the line.

8-Skill increase adjustments (more for harder orders..?)

** Not a fan - convince me

9-Agent/Guard adjustments

*** ?

10-Troop Racial Modifiers (Combat worth AND recruiting allowances)

*** Nations modifiers?

11-Randomized encounter/dragon responses

*** Sounds interesting.

12-Randomized Pop Center placement

** not so sure - maybe half and half?

13-Recruitable NPC's

*** And other chunky bits new to the game?

We have been asked for input on a "questionnaire" of sorts.

** Yes please

It's about now where a relatively detailed summary of what Harlequin CAN

and CANNOT do

would be useful, to help keep us on track.

** See above.

Clint

[Harlequin_Games1]

> 2-Nation Special Abilities (Racially differentiated..?)
I think this is a goer, but I don't think we've seen may good ideas yet.
We can alter the stealth - automatic stealth for all elves? But what
else. Health I suppose is worth looking at - the Dunedain were beefy.
Is it consistent that all characters of all races have 100 health?

** What about a Toughness special ability?

> 3-Troop Terrain Modifiers (Archers in the plains...LI in the rough...?)
Yes. Troops and battles in general. 3 troop types Cav, Inf, and
Archers (simplifies). Rationalised armouring orders (simplifies). More
severe terrain modifiers (no change, computer deals with it). More
severe tactics vs. troop type modifiers (no change, computer deals with
it) perhaps with the statistics known.

Movement as well?

>11-Randomized encounter/dragon responses
Yes. A MUCH larger database of encounters. A free turn if you write a
good encounter to add to an ever growing database. A player + GM
moderating group to determine which new encounters are accepted.

Um - how much money?! Keeping the information hidden would be good.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Please no questionnaire. It's much too
early for that.

*** The Questionnaire would open the debate to more players so that more
information would come in - most players don't read this. So with that in
mind this would be a preliminary stage. Yes.

Clint

[Harlequin_Games1]

Not strictly true. We have a sort of plan (money allowing). Basically I
want (doesn't get I know) to have a program similar to LPE out for the
release of one of the ME films. ME is not as complex as Legends so should
be easier to incorporate.

1st Stage - get the FS working properly. (In the process of).
2nd Stage get Auto-input done (in the process of).
3rd Stage re-vamp the program to bring it uptodate with modern practises.
(Well I need to know what players want before this can be tackled with GSI).
4th Stage - get MPE (or whatever it is called) for Middle Earth with a nice
graphical front end to send out on CD to all potential players..
5th Retire a rich man aged 31...

Clint

···

I think its unlikely that Clint will allocate decent
resources to a major redo of the M/E code (I want my
BOTP turnsheet to still come out clint). So I reckon
most of this is just pie-in-the-sky stuff.

[Uncle_Girion]

> 1-Starting Character Abilities (closer to ICE MERP realism..?)

Who has the rights to these?

(trying to sound hopeful...)

Uh, lets not raise the "rights" issue. I'm skeptical that you guys even have
a license to run the game because...

DGE license is based on GSI license which is based on ICE license which is
revoked.
Thus... no license.

Has this ever been cleared up?

[Harlequin_Games1]

Yes we have a nice shiny new contract now ... yum. GSi negotiated directly
with the Tolkien foundation to get the appropriate rights.

Clint

> > 1-Starting Character Abilities (closer to ICE MERP realism..?)
>
> Who has the rights to these?

Uh, lets not raise the "rights" issue. I'm skeptical that you guys even

have

···

a license to run the game because...

Thus... no license.

Has this ever been cleared up?

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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[Uncle_Girion]

YAY!!!!!!!!
whoo HOOO!!!!
Now THIS makes me VERY happy!

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Middle Earth PBM Games [mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 2:38 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Game Modifications

Yes we have a nice shiny new contract now ... yum. GSi negotiated directly
with the Tolkien foundation to get the appropriate rights.

Clint
> > > 1-Starting Character Abilities (closer to ICE MERP realism..?)
> >
> > Who has the rights to these?

> Uh, lets not raise the "rights" issue. I'm skeptical that you guys even
have
> a license to run the game because...
>
> Thus... no license.
>
> Has this ever been cleared up?
>
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Middle Earth PBM List -
Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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[jasonab]

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

Not strictly true. We have a sort of plan (money allowing). Basically I
want (doesn't get I know) to have a program similar to LPE out for the
release of one of the ME films. ME is not as complex as Legends so should
be easier to incorporate.

Are you expecting a large influx of players from the ME movies? I
presume so. Any plans to handle this?

1st Stage - get the FS working properly. (In the process of).
2nd Stage get Auto-input done (in the process of).

Have you guys looked at the various programs currently out there?

    jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
Software developer, cryptography buff, gamer
Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord

[Din]

--- Jason Bennett <jasonab@acm.org> wrote: > Middle
Earth PBM Games wrote:

>
> Not strictly true. We have a sort of plan (money
allowing). Basically I
> want (doesn't get I know) to have a program
similar to LPE out for the
> release of one of the ME films. ME is not as
complex as Legends so should
> be easier to incorporate.

Are you expecting a large influx of players from the
ME movies? I
presume so. Any plans to handle this?

Clint did create a seperate m/e page (I forget its
address).

But i don't expect that many people. I expect people
will use the net to access 'tokien', 'middle earth',
'lotr', etc. Then would then suck up stuff like
pictures, sound files, a explanation of what they just
saw, etc.

A small number of people might say 'heh, here is a
game where I'm in control of the people I saw. Maybe I
should investigate futher to see what is the story'.

I then expect an much fewer number to decide to give
it a go. Fear of the unknown is pretty common. To
expect people who have never played a single PBM game,
don't know anyone in the game (nor the company running
it), or even what sort of stuff they should do when
they get their first turnsheet, to play M/E is 'not
good'. They might also freak out having to pay real
money, so I hope Clint doesn't points out how much a
52 turn game would cost is you paid upfront

Clint wil have to ensure his site gets hit when people
do the basic searches. And he then needs to assume the
target audience knows nothing about PBM games. And
then convince them that they won't be swallow/chewed
up/spit out by the experienced players.

So Clint has done some work on it.

thanks
din

···

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[Harlequin_Games1]

We've seen some of them - they are only capabale of producing a file for
players - it does work on the input end here. What programs are there?
(Anyone got one to send us?) As for the players from the Film we are
looking at that as well. Shame we weren't at this stage sometime last year
as time is a tad tight and money short.

Clint

···

Are you expecting a large influx of players from the ME movies? I
presume so. Any plans to handle this?
>
> 2nd Stage get Auto-input done (in the process of).

Have you guys looked at the various programs currently out there?

[Harlequin_Games1]

Check out www.middleearth.co.uk for more

Clint

···

Clint did create a seperate m/e page (I forget its
address).

[jasonab]

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

We've seen some of them - they are only capabale of producing a file for
players - it does work on the input end here. What programs are there?
(Anyone got one to send us?) As for the players from the Film we are
looking at that as well. Shame we weren't at this stage sometime last year
as time is a tad tight and money short.

Obviously, I have mine (sent notice to the list last summer). It let the
player select orders from a list that only showed his rank-allowed
orders. It didn't do a lot of checking, though.

How exactly are you guys putting the program together?

    jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
Software developer, cryptography buff, gamer
Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord