Game Winners Certificates

I'm agreeing with the person who said to calm down.

It was marc who said that he had 4 WC's, and wouldn't
play another game is WCs were not to be accepted.

I know that I have previously commented in the deft
site that since a WC is not needed to pick 1650 or
2950 nations, they might be worth more by hording
them. I would only use a WC in a FA setup (as you
don't waste 3000 points to anchor your capital).

Laurence commented on him hording the WC, and his
attack on Marc's only considered of the lines 'So your
not self-interested or anything ? Maybe you should get
yourself some friends instead of hording bits of
paper'

The 'self-interested' comment is valid. With 4 WC,
then Marc has a right to have a personal concern over
the WC issue.

The 'hording bits of paper' comment is also valid.
When Marc won the first, and didn't use it when he
played the next game, it didn't imply anything. But
having 4 indicates that he isn't using them when he
played his next game. That implies hording. It also
meant that he has often come first from playing
several random nations - no easy thing to do. Very
impressed.

But then saying 'you have no friends' wasn't called
for, nor could be justified. But its not that bad an
insult. Hey, I've said worse things to laurence myself
(game 29 comes to mind when I said his tactics sucked,
and he was leading the side to an easy defeat. I
walked away before the first turn, rather than play a
game where I was 100% sure we would lose. I've since
found out that his side is now winning. So thats an
oops for me).

The rest of Laurence's letter was normal (he mainly
said that he doesn't consider coming first as useful
as others think it to be).

And as far as I'm aware, Clint has never said that he
would refuse to accept WC's. His only comment is that
all players already use WC when they pick the nation
they want to play. And if players want to use their WC
all at once (like picking the WW in 2950), then it
might take some time to start so many games.

Matt come out swinging for Mark. I assume Mark should
have read marc, but Matt's response is even more
insulting than Laurence. Oh joy. I've seen middle east
battles start them way (ie 'they started it first by
throwing rocks', then 'you started it first by using
guns on the rock throwers', and then 'you then
starting it by snipering on people, and planting
bombs').

At least Ashley comments were nice. They attacked
Laurence's comments, and did so in a positive way.
Very impressed.

I think Clint should accept WC's. But I think Marc
might realise WC's are meaningless if he uses his WC
to pick the Harad in one game, then finds out that in
another game, I've picked the Harad without having to
use a WC.

Nations are allocated on either 'first come, first
serve' in normal games, or 'the team picks who plays
what nation'in grudge games. In team games, then using
WC for picking nations are meaningless. And in normal
games, Clint lets us swap position if the two players
agrees.

Maybe Clint can allow WC to bump a person out of the
first come, first serve position in a normal game ? I
know that if was down for the WW in 2950 (or the harad
in 1650), then I wouldn't mind being bumped out of the
position if someone used a WC.

My last comment - I think we all need to realise that
WC are never going to be givin out for coming first on
points with Harly games.

Oh the joys of seeing people getting so angry :frowning:
din

···

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To add to this "discussion" ....:

I know both Matt and Marc personally (well, impersonally - it's only "personal"
if you can consider someone a "personal friend" who you couldn't pick out of a
lineup - a very interesting question, btw, perhaps more worthy of discussion that
GWCs ...). Both are very much "team players." I would _never_ begrudge either
"winning" a GWC. That being said ...

GWCs _do_ have value in addition to "pick your own nation" (or capital insurance
in FA):

Then entitle the holder to a free set-up (including the standard 2 turns), plus
two _more_ free turns (for a total of 4). That's a $25.50 value (slightly less
in UK currency). Not inconsiderable.

The implications of GWCs' value vis-a-vis position-placement (i.e. - none) were
obvious a long time ago to those of us who played with both Harlequin and DGE
... Those of you just figuring it out .... welcome to the party. :slight_smile:

That being said, I happen to hold a couple of "non-cashed" GWCs myself.

(An aside: I do _not_ consider myself a "hoarder of paper" or "one without
friends in MEPBM" ... I will send references - mostly nefarious ... you know who
you are :slight_smile: - wrt my "team outlook" - I do consider myself a team player, despite
the fact that I actually recieved a GWC - for anyone "disgusted" with the mere
thought of someone receiving a GWC)

I _am_ interested to know what Harly's policy wrt these will be. If I have them,
and it makes sense to use them (for the cash value, if nothing else), I will.

I'll reserve comment for now on the hypothetical question "how would I feel if I
were signed up for the WW via the Harlequin standing policy of 'first-come,
first-served' and then someone else came along and 'bumped' me out of the
position by using a DGE-issued GWC." (It would probably depend on how long I'd
waited, etc. ... Side, side note: a clear statement of how this will be handled
would be helpful ...)

As for GWCs themselves, my own not-so-humble opinion (as one who has won alot of
them, probably a half-dozen, often quite undeservedly-so, while not "winning" one
in certain games where I felt I "deserved" one - in some esoteric sense - I think
_all_ the surviving members of a tough, long game should get special recognition)
is there's nothing wrong with them. Assuming they are "bad" is very much like
expecting someone to apologize for winning a lottery ... And, while I don't
think they are particularly indicative of players' "relative value" within a
game, they at least are a testament to a willingness to stick in games (albeit
the ones that are going well ... "not that there's anything _wrong_ with that"
(for you Seinfeld fans ...:)). They ceased having much (non-economic) value to
me when I started playing with Harlequin (due to their different approach to
position allotment). And, as someone who now has sworn off all non-grudge games
(I _might_ pick up a positoin in a non-grudge game where I knew the person
asking, and they vouched for the entire team I'd be joining ...), they'll have
even less value from that standpoint ...

Still ... I have 'em. I'm (naturally) curious to know if they will retain (at
least) their economic value (and how any "position preference" - if any - will be
handled). I'll certainly avail myself of such economic value if it exists. And
I won't apologize for it, either.

$.02

b (Ben Shushan)

Din wrote:

···

I'm agreeing with the person who said to calm down.

It was marc who said that he had 4 WC's, and wouldn't
play another game is WCs were not to be accepted.

I know that I have previously commented in the deft
site that since a WC is not needed to pick 1650 or
2950 nations, they might be worth more by hording
them. I would only use a WC in a FA setup (as you
don't waste 3000 points to anchor your capital).

Laurence commented on him hording the WC, and his
attack on Marc's only considered of the lines 'So your
not self-interested or anything ? Maybe you should get
yourself some friends instead of hording bits of
paper'

The 'self-interested' comment is valid. With 4 WC,
then Marc has a right to have a personal concern over
the WC issue.

The 'hording bits of paper' comment is also valid.
When Marc won the first, and didn't use it when he
played the next game, it didn't imply anything. But
having 4 indicates that he isn't using them when he
played his next game. That implies hording. It also
meant that he has often come first from playing
several random nations - no easy thing to do. Very
impressed.

But then saying 'you have no friends' wasn't called
for, nor could be justified. But its not that bad an
insult. Hey, I've said worse things to laurence myself
(game 29 comes to mind when I said his tactics sucked,
and he was leading the side to an easy defeat. I
walked away before the first turn, rather than play a
game where I was 100% sure we would lose. I've since
found out that his side is now winning. So thats an
oops for me).

The rest of Laurence's letter was normal (he mainly
said that he doesn't consider coming first as useful
as others think it to be).

And as far as I'm aware, Clint has never said that he
would refuse to accept WC's. His only comment is that
all players already use WC when they pick the nation
they want to play. And if players want to use their WC
all at once (like picking the WW in 2950), then it
might take some time to start so many games.

Matt come out swinging for Mark. I assume Mark should
have read marc, but Matt's response is even more
insulting than Laurence. Oh joy. I've seen middle east
battles start them way (ie 'they started it first by
throwing rocks', then 'you started it first by using
guns on the rock throwers', and then 'you then
starting it by snipering on people, and planting
bombs').

At least Ashley comments were nice. They attacked
Laurence's comments, and did so in a positive way.
Very impressed.

I think Clint should accept WC's. But I think Marc
might realise WC's are meaningless if he uses his WC
to pick the Harad in one game, then finds out that in
another game, I've picked the Harad without having to
use a WC.

Nations are allocated on either 'first come, first
serve' in normal games, or 'the team picks who plays
what nation'in grudge games. In team games, then using
WC for picking nations are meaningless. And in normal
games, Clint lets us swap position if the two players
agrees.

Maybe Clint can allow WC to bump a person out of the
first come, first serve position in a normal game ? I
know that if was down for the WW in 2950 (or the harad
in 1650), then I wouldn't mind being bumped out of the
position if someone used a WC.

My last comment - I think we all need to realise that
WC are never going to be givin out for coming first on
points with Harly games.

Oh the joys of seeing people getting so angry :frowning:
din

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Din wrote:

Maybe Clint can allow WC to bump a person out of the
first come, first serve position in a normal game ? I
know that if was down for the WW in 2950 (or the harad
in 1650), then I wouldn't mind being bumped out of the
position if someone used a WC.

I'd mind. :slight_smile:

Hey, I've got some PanAm upgrade certificates somewhere. Should I start
whingeing to American to get an upgrade...? :slight_smile:

Gavin

Has anyone else noticed that our new friends seem to have difficulty typing
"Harlequin" and have replaced it with "Harly"...?

Gavin (in windup mode)

I'll sit back for a while longer about this issue to get more of a feel.

Clint

Just to make it interesting, perhaps it's time to redefine victory in this
game. MEPBM is designed as an alliance based game, even FA. Perhaps
victory definitions should deal with that instead. I'd like to see an
elimination of "personal victory" like VP and VC. I'd rather victory be
defined as

1) One alliance defeats another
2) One alliance finds the One Ring and tosses it into Mt. Doom or hands it
to Sauron
3) The opposition is incapable of resisting (perhaps using VP to determine
this). I add this third one to do away with the farse of some clown with
one MT and a few camps bouncing around the map, his alliance has crumbled,
and he's just trying to buy the game by out enduring his oppositions desire
to pay turn fees for a game already over. This type of person is sometimes
seen gloating about thier "victory".

If players want a free for all with Personal victory does matter, that could
be another variant of the game (or perhaps FA could formally morph into that
with all players Neutral and no Good or Evil).

Wes

<sigh>. The pitfalls of email messages....

I said that I wouldn't start another game until the issue was
clarified one way or another. I'd like to know if these pieces of
paper have any real value. I have a lot of respect for Harlequin, and
hope that they recognize the commitments of the previous game owners.
I'm confident that they will in some way; I was trying to both express
an opinion and saying (apparently in a way that was misunderstood)
that this is really something that I need to know before I can commit
to more games.

As regards hoarding: almost all of my games now are either standby
positions as favors to friends or grudge matches, neither of which
requires certs; I also just got two of them.

cheers,

Marc

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Din <din_ohtar@y...> wrote:

I'm agreeing with the person who said to calm down.

It was marc who said that he had 4 WC's, and wouldn't
play another game is WCs were not to be accepted.

Gavinwj wrote:

Hey, I've got some PanAm upgrade certificates somewhere. Should I start
whingeing to American to get an upgrade...? :slight_smile:

FYI quite a number of American companies accept competitor's coupons.
IMHO this has more to do with the average American's inability to
distinguish Burger King from McDonald's, but the companies chalk it up
to good customer relaions - take your pick. :slight_smile:

-ED \1/

Din wrote:

> Maybe Clint can allow WC to bump a person out of the
> first come, first serve position in a normal game ? I
> know that if was down for the WW in 2950 (or the harad
> in 1650), then I wouldn't mind being bumped out of the
> position if someone used a WC.

I'd mind. :slight_smile:

Which is, of course, why I suggested that Harlequin simply alternate
between games where this is possible and where it is not.

Notice that my proposal gives us both choices, while your position
does not. That's compromise, no?

cheers,

Marc

Hey, I've got some PanAm upgrade certificates somewhere. Should I

start

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:

whingeing to American to get an upgrade...? :slight_smile:

Gavin

Clint, I sometimes think you've been cloned: how else to explain posts at
1:39 am...!

I've taken the week off. What's your excuse, man?!

Gavin (in awe)

Edward A. Dimmick wrote:

Hey, I've got some PanAm upgrade certificates somewhere. Should I start
whingeing to American to get an upgrade...? :slight_smile:

FYI quite a number of American companies accept competitor's coupons.
IMHO this has more to do with the average American's inability to
distinguish Burger King from McDonald's, but the companies chalk it up
to good customer relaions - take your pick. :slight_smile:

Ed, you may just have made my day, both for the chuckle and for the tip.
Thanks!

Gavin

But then saying 'you have no friends' wasn't called
for, nor could be justified. But its not that bad an
insult. Hey, I've said worse things to laurence myself
(game 29 comes to mind when I said his tactics sucked,
and he was leading the side to an easy defeat. I
walked away before the first turn, rather than play a
game where I was 100% sure we would lose. I've since
found out that his side is now winning. So thats an
oops for me).

If the G29 in question is the WOTR scenario then i don't think that it's
really outstanding tactics that are winning it for them, more the fact that
the individual we had playing NG decided against bringing down the bridges.
He was told early on that putting up a sign saying 'Dark Servants Keep Off,
trespassers will be given a severe talking too' wouldn't be enough to deter
them. But did he listen, did he SMEG!

Still it has made things rather interesting and there's still a long way to
go.

Al

Yes this could be done - but we would have to put in some NPC positions that
are not attackable as Good and FP and have some Strategic PCs exempt as
well. Other than it should be fine. Bit like CTF (game that we run) has
these games but we find alliances develop... :slight_smile:

Clint

Just to make it interesting, perhaps it's time to redefine victory in this
game. MEPBM is designed as an alliance based game, even FA. Perhaps
victory definitions should deal with that instead. I'd like to see an
elimination of "personal victory" like VP and VC. I'd rather victory be
defined as

1) One alliance defeats another
2) One alliance finds the One Ring and tosses it into Mt. Doom or hands it
to Sauron
3) The opposition is incapable of resisting (perhaps using VP to determine
this). I add this third one to do away with the farse of some clown with
one MT and a few camps bouncing around the map, his alliance has crumbled,
and he's just trying to buy the game by out enduring his oppositions

desire

to pay turn fees for a game already over. This type of person is

sometimes

seen gloating about thier "victory".

If players want a free for all with Personal victory does matter, that

could

be another variant of the game (or perhaps FA could formally morph into

that

···

with all players Neutral and no Good or Evil).

Wes

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DGE style are mostly Team, UK are still half and half. I'm happy to
guarantee the position for say 6 months, the credit was not something that
we expected. We normally just give a free set-up I'll discuss this with Stu
when we get some spare time.

···

As regards hoarding: almost all of my games now are either standby
positions as favors to friends or grudge matches, neither of which
requires certs; I also just got two of them.

cheers,

Marc

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Not sure if this would be viable - too many choices mean no actual games
getting created. For example when we took over the game we had two 2950
games taking set-ups. Both were half filled with some of the tastier
positions duplicated and the waiting list had already been up for some
months. So quick bit of chatting to the players and we managed to get a
game going, better for all that way with some compromises. I can see this
with the USA set-ups as well but wait until I can work through them as we
are still setting up 350 accounts (nearly half way there now!)

clint

···

Which is, of course, why I suggested that Harlequin simply alternate
between games where this is possible and where it is not.

Notice that my proposal gives us both choices, while your position
does not. That's compromise, no?

Ah 16 hour working days, work, eat, sleep, watch half an hour of League of
Gentleman (feel ill), work, eat, sleep, work, eat, sleep... :slight_smile: Rob put in
a straight 13 hour (I kip in between) day two days ago... still haven't
touched my legends turns
("blasphemy"). :slight_smile: No doubt by March it will slow down... :slight_smile:

Clint

···

Clint, I sometimes think you've been cloned: how else to explain posts at
1:39 am...!

I've taken the week off. What's your excuse, man?!

Gavin (in awe)

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I have a tough time with it myself but so far haven't
shortened it.

But don't forget the quote (Shaw?) that US and UK are
separated by a common language...

Jeremy Richman

Has anyone else noticed that our new friends seem to have difficulty

typing

···

--- In mepbmlist@egroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:

"Harlequin" and have replaced it with "Harly"...?

Gavin (in windup mode)