Hi,
the things in Moria ,which were annoyingly climbing walls like cockroaches, were goblins.
Can someone explain, quoting relevant bits from a Tolkien book, the difference (if any) between Goblins and Orcs?
Colin
Colin,
This is From a Tolkien Letter to Hugh Brogan (Letter 151, Septemeber
1954)...quoting Tolkien...
"Your preference of goblins to orcs involves a large question and a
matter of taste, and perhaps historical pedantry on my pan.
Personally, I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are not 'goblins',
not even the goblins of George Macdonald, which they do to some
extent resemble). Also now I am deeply regret having used Elves,
though this is used in ancestry and original meaning suitable
enough. But the disastrous debasement of this word, in which
Shakesspeare played an unforgiveable pan, has really overloaded it
with regrettable tones, which are too much to overcome. I hope in
the Appendixes to Volume III to be able to include a note 'On
translation' in which the matter of equivalences and my uses may be
made clearly. My difficulty has been that, since I have tried to
present a kind of legendary and history of a 'forgotten epoch', all
the specific terms were in a foreign language, and no precise
equivalents exist in English. ...."
Not sure this was what you were exactly asking for; but it is in
Tolkien's own words. Tolkien wanted to set up his own mythology for
the various races inhabiting Middle Earth using words recognizable to
his readers while not giving his readers preconceived notions as to
what a race was like. His later regret of the use of the word Goblin
in the Hobbitt was rectified in LOTR.
Hope this helps in a small way.
Paul
···
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Colin Forbes <colin@t...> wrote:
Hi,
>the things in Moria ,which were annoyingly climbing walls like
>cockroaches, were goblins.
>
Can someone explain, quoting relevant bits from a Tolkien book, the
difference (if any) between Goblins and Orcs?Colin
Here is a snip from The Encyclopedia of Arda, which can be found at:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
It's a very interesting site if you have some spare time to kill! This
entry suggests goblins are usually "smaller orcs" and it briefly explains
how this theory is derived.
Russ
···
-----------------
Goblins
The race of Orcs
Dates: First appeared soon after the Awakening of the Elves; apparently
still extant
Origins: Made by Melkor
Race: Orcs
Meaning: Probably originally related to kobolds, spirits said to dwell in
mines
Other Names: Glamhoth, Orcs, Yrch
***A name for Orcs, and especially the smaller kinds that infested the Misty
and the Grey Mountains in the later Third Age, and had their capital at
Mount Gundabad. ***
Is there a difference between an 'Orc' and a 'Goblin'? The following quote
from the foreword to The Hobbit sheds some light on this: "[The word 'Orc']
occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin
for the larger kinds)."(Hence the statement above; 'especially the smaller
kinds'). This entry concentrates on the goblins of the Grey and Misty
Mountains simply because it is these Orcs that Tolkien most frequently
refers to by the term 'goblin'.
The word 'goblin' is also used occasionally and indiscriminately in The Lord
of the Rings; it never occurs in the The Silmarillion.
-------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: <BRILLIANTINTELLECT@hotmail.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 3:40 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Goblins and Stuff
Colin,
This is From a Tolkien Letter to Hugh Brogan (Letter 151, Septemeber
1954)...quoting Tolkien..."Your preference of goblins to orcs involves a large question and a
matter of taste, and perhaps historical pedantry on my pan.
Personally, I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are not 'goblins',
not even the goblins of George Macdonald, which they do to some
extent resemble). Also now I am deeply regret having used Elves,
though this is used in ancestry and original meaning suitable
enough. But the disastrous debasement of this word, in which
Shakesspeare played an unforgiveable pan, has really overloaded it
with regrettable tones, which are too much to overcome. I hope in
the Appendixes to Volume III to be able to include a note 'On
translation' in which the matter of equivalences and my uses may be
made clearly. My difficulty has been that, since I have tried to
present a kind of legendary and history of a 'forgotten epoch', all
the specific terms were in a foreign language, and no precise
equivalents exist in English. ...."Not sure this was what you were exactly asking for; but it is in
Tolkien's own words. Tolkien wanted to set up his own mythology for
the various races inhabiting Middle Earth using words recognizable to
his readers while not giving his readers preconceived notions as to
what a race was like. His later regret of the use of the word Goblin
in the Hobbitt was rectified in LOTR.Hope this helps in a small way.
Paul
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Colin Forbes <colin@t...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> >the things in Moria ,which were annoyingly climbing walls like
> >cockroaches, were goblins.
> >
> Can someone explain, quoting relevant bits from a Tolkien book, the
> difference (if any) between Goblins and Orcs?
>
> ColinMiddle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.comYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Hi,
>the things in Moria ,which were annoyingly climbing walls like
>cockroaches, were goblins.
>
Can someone explain, quoting relevant bits from a Tolkien book, the
difference (if any) between Goblins and Orcs?
Colin
RD: Further to my previous little epistle on this subject, they are the same creature.
Tolkien calls them goblins in "The Hobbit". In LoR they are usually referred to as orcs, which is the elvish word for them. The Dundedain language was based on Elvish and therefore used the same word. Therefore Elrond, Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas etc always say "orc." But note that the hobbits still use "goblin" (as in, when leaving Bree, Sam says somebody watching them "looks like more than half a goblin").
The evil creatures who infest the Misty Mountains have not changed between "The Hobbit" and LoR, only the emphasis. "The Hobbit" was written from a Hobbitish point of view and therefore used the Hobbitish word "goblin." LoR, OTOH, was driven by Gandalf, Elrond, and Aragorn (the hobbits were simply their tools) and therefore the elvish word predominates.
If you don't believe me, look up "goblin" in either Robert Foster's "Complete Guide to Middle-earth" or Tyler's "Complete Tolkien Companion." Both refer you to "orc."
Richard.
>
>
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
···
----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Forbes
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 6:15 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Goblins and Stuff
Here is a snip from The Encyclopedia of Arda, which can be found at:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
It's a very interesting site if you have some spare time to kill! This
entry suggests goblins are usually "smaller orcs" and it briefly explains
how this theory is derived.
Russ
RD: Thanks for this Russ
Goblins
The race of Orcs
Dates: First appeared soon after the Awakening of the Elves; apparently
still extant
Origins: Made by Melkor
Race: Orcs
Meaning: Probably originally related to kobolds, spirits said to dwell in
mines
Other Names: Glamhoth, Orcs, Yrch
***A name for Orcs, and especially the smaller kinds that infested the Misty
and the Grey Mountains in the later Third Age, and had their capital at
Mount Gundabad. ***
Is there a difference between an 'Orc' and a 'Goblin'?
The following quote
from the foreword to The Hobbit sheds some light on this:
"[The word 'Orc']
occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin
for the larger kinds)."
(Hence the statement above; 'especially the smaller
kinds'). This entry concentrates on the goblins of the Grey and Misty
Mountains simply because it is these Orcs that Tolkien most frequently
refers to by the term 'goblin'.
RD: There you have it in Tolkien's own words: "orc... is usually translated goblin." One is a translation of the other. They are the same creature. There is NO warrant whatsoever for turning the statement on its head and saying goblins are small orcs or they are a different tribe from a particular location.
Thank you for making that clearer still!
Richard.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: R.K.Floyd
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Goblins and Stuff
-------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: <BRILLIANTINTELLECT@hotmail.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 3:40 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Goblins and Stuff
> Colin,
>
> This is From a Tolkien Letter to Hugh Brogan (Letter 151, Septemeber
> 1954)...quoting Tolkien...
>
> "Your preference of goblins to orcs involves a large question and a
> matter of taste, and perhaps historical pedantry on my pan.
> Personally, I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are not 'goblins',
> not even the goblins of George Macdonald, which they do to some
> extent resemble). Also now I am deeply regret having used Elves,
> though this is used in ancestry and original meaning suitable
> enough. But the disastrous debasement of this word, in which
> Shakesspeare played an unforgiveable pan, has really overloaded it
> with regrettable tones, which are too much to overcome. I hope in
> the Appendixes to Volume III to be able to include a note 'On
> translation' in which the matter of equivalences and my uses may be
> made clearly. My difficulty has been that, since I have tried to
> present a kind of legendary and history of a 'forgotten epoch', all
> the specific terms were in a foreign language, and no precise
> equivalents exist in English. ...."
>
> Not sure this was what you were exactly asking for; but it is in
> Tolkien's own words. Tolkien wanted to set up his own mythology for
> the various races inhabiting Middle Earth using words recognizable to
> his readers while not giving his readers preconceived notions as to
> what a race was like. His later regret of the use of the word Goblin
> in the Hobbitt was rectified in LOTR.
>
> Hope this helps in a small way.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Colin Forbes <colin@t...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > >the things in Moria ,which were annoyingly climbing walls like
> > >cockroaches, were goblins.
> > >
> > Can someone explain, quoting relevant bits from a Tolkien book, the
> > difference (if any) between Goblins and Orcs?
> >
> > Colin
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "brilliantintellect
<BRILLIANTINTELLECT@h...>" <BRILLIANTINTELLECT@h...> wrote:
Colin,
This is From a Tolkien Letter to Hugh Brogan (Letter 151,
Septemeber
1954)...quoting Tolkien...
"Your preference of goblins to orcs involves a large question and a
matter of taste, and perhaps historical pedantry on my pan.
Personally, I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are not 'goblins',
not even the goblins of George Macdonald, which they do to some
extent resemble). Also now I am deeply regret having used Elves,
though this is used in ancestry and original meaning suitable
enough. But the disastrous debasement of this word, in which
Shakesspeare played an unforgiveable pan, has really overloaded it
with regrettable tones, which are too much to overcome. I hope in
the Appendixes to Volume III to be able to include a note 'On
translation' in which the matter of equivalences and my uses may be
made clearly. My difficulty has been that, since I have tried to
present a kind of legendary and history of a 'forgotten epoch', all
the specific terms were in a foreign language, and no precise
equivalents exist in English. ...."Not sure this was what you were exactly asking for; but it is in
Tolkien's own words. Tolkien wanted to set up his own mythology
for
the various races inhabiting Middle Earth using words recognizable
to
his readers while not giving his readers preconceived notions as to
what a race was like. His later regret of the use of the word
Goblin
in the Hobbitt was rectified in LOTR.
Hope this helps in a small way.
Paul
Paul;
Good to see you're still posting. Are you still playing Neutral
positions or have you also tried some aligned ones? Best wishes for
the new year.
Brad
> Hi,
>
> >the things in Moria ,which were annoyingly climbing walls like
> >cockroaches, were goblins.
> >
> Can someone explain, quoting relevant bits from a Tolkien book,
the
···
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Colin Forbes <colin@t...> wrote:
> difference (if any) between Goblins and Orcs?
>
> Colin
Brad,
I'm running a couple of aligned nations. Clint recently had a child
and required my turn fees to add another wing to his estate.
Best wishes to you and yours...
Paul
...Amelia, if you are still lurking, my portrait is available to be
used for stock Dunlendings characters. As Clint will testify, I'm
what's known as Man-Pretty...
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "kingoftherill
<kingoftherill@y...>" <kingoftherill@y...> wrote:
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "brilliantintellect
<BRILLIANTINTELLECT@h...>" <BRILLIANTINTELLECT@h...> wrote:
> Colin,
>
> This is From a Tolkien Letter to Hugh Brogan (Letter 151,
Septemeber
> 1954)...quoting Tolkien...
>
> "Your preference of goblins to orcs involves a large question and
a
> matter of taste, and perhaps historical pedantry on my pan.
> Personally, I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are
not 'goblins',
> not even the goblins of George Macdonald, which they do to some
> extent resemble). Also now I am deeply regret having used Elves,
> though this is used in ancestry and original meaning suitable
> enough. But the disastrous debasement of this word, in which
> Shakesspeare played an unforgiveable pan, has really overloaded
it
> with regrettable tones, which are too much to overcome. I hope
in
> the Appendixes to Volume III to be able to include a note 'On
> translation' in which the matter of equivalences and my uses may
be
> made clearly. My difficulty has been that, since I have tried to
> present a kind of legendary and history of a 'forgotten epoch',
all
> the specific terms were in a foreign language, and no precise
> equivalents exist in English. ...."
>
> Not sure this was what you were exactly asking for; but it is in
> Tolkien's own words. Tolkien wanted to set up his own mythology
for
> the various races inhabiting Middle Earth using words
recognizable
to
> his readers while not giving his readers preconceived notions as
to
···
> what a race was like. His later regret of the use of the word
Goblin
> in the Hobbitt was rectified in LOTR.
>
> Hope this helps in a small way.
>
> PaulPaul;
Good to see you're still posting. Are you still playing Neutral
positions or have you also tried some aligned ones? Best wishes for
the new year.Brad
>
>
>
>
> --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Colin Forbes <colin@t...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > >the things in Moria ,which were annoyingly climbing walls like
> > >cockroaches, were goblins.
> > >
> > Can someone explain, quoting relevant bits from a Tolkien book,
the
> > difference (if any) between Goblins and Orcs?
> >
> > Colin