The long nightmare is over.
and nightmare it was. Who were you Drew? John Folz and I were NE/HA.
We were poised to attempt to take out the CL 3 turns ago, and then I made REALLY STUPID order mistakes 2 turns in a row giving the CL a new lease on life. ugh ugh ugh. mea culpa. We had taken all the CL pops in Mordor, and would have had a huge army w/WM on his city at the bottom of the Misties the same turn we took his capital were it not for my stupidity.
Then of course we could talk about the DkL who we were in the process of taking out when, in ME Game’s infinite wisdom, they combined the DkL with the LR who immediately revived the position. I really hate it when a losing position quits and gets combined with a winning one so that it can be brought back to life. That just sux massively.
And of course there was the stupid typo that I made early in the game that cascaded into a series of character war losses in CO/HA land. We had very good luck on early artifact hunts and had a lot of nice ones. But I went to the wrong hex and one thing led to another… sigh
Nicely played DS. Well done.
Dave
Clint, per the rules of this GB, you should publish who quit what positions and when. We can all throw eggs at them then.
Dave
I don’t know - I’ll get Rob to look at it and send it.
I played the WK/Dkl (boo-hiss I hear Dave say!) 2nd biggest turning point for me was having the DS send the WK NO gold the entire game (I even sent the Rhudaur gold). Ended up bankrupting - missed a curse one turn which cost me big (rushed orders) due to Arthedain/Woodmen hordes, backed up by Sindar killer (took out Murazor so that killed the curse squad and despite sitting at the Doggie capital for ages waiting for the Curse item to come back - I had transfered it earlier to him - nothing appeared).
However the biggest impact for me was that I was hunting the NM pcs and just about to take out the last MT when he got picked up by the FP meaning that it was all too late as Cardolan/Sindar gave him a back-up that was way too secure to hit. Would have been the NM out the next turn. Directly impacted on the WK’s defence of 2305 etc that did and the actual bankruptcy of the WK in the end (and following that the Rh). (Considering this was a no-drop I had wondered if pick-ups should even be allowed but it had a big impact in that manner - I much prefer the new rules that have been brought in though so it’s all very interesting). I think a single picking up a secondary nation is fine within the game though (especially if you don’t have the old turns to garner any advantage that way).
So pick-ups affected both sides and most beneficially (IMO) the FPs as they got an early advantage of a triplet vs the dire positions of the DS (Dog Lord just blowing up was a nightmare!) Also I agree with the policy (note Rob implemented it - nowt to do with me I don’t interfere in the game if I’m playing).
Only stuck at the game due to it being a no-drop so it had that impact. With future no drops I’d like to see a way to transfer the nations (I think we had 3 players drop due to tedium in the game in the end, and even some sort of limited diplomacy in some form or another - not sure what).
Later the DkL picked up nicely (some of it having a second nation to back it up) and the Ems kicking in taking Imladris and most of the NW threatened/Infed back helped a lot. Nice battle in the 4013 region which was cute.
Personally feel that the NW with all the improvements swings the game in the DS favour enormously. I almost held off the Arthedain/Woodmen and with even say 15k gold (or not sending to the Rhudaur) would have been fine. Seeing the IK improve PCs to Cities and the like was grinding my teeth as I was desperately recruiting Archers to stay alive… :rolleyes:
Hats off to the Ar/Woo combo - Woodies was everywhere! Tim H where you FP or DS?
GM Hat on: As a GM I’m wary of the the potential debates that will occur here but thanks for the game. As always anything we can do to improve this format would be great so suggestions welcome.
Clint (player)
I was Woodmen, Jim was Arthedain. We eliminated WK about T15 or so, the DoL about T35 or so, and thought we might get some momentum in NW Mordor at that time. But IK & DkL pushed us back out, cooperating nicely for a no diplo game. (Kudos to WK btw, who played a wonderful game out of Gundabad. It was a near-run thing, I assure you.)
We darn sure didn’t like the DkL getting paired back up, as he was formidable enough on his own after he recruited the WK cursers. But what really “did it” for Jim & me was the “treying” up of BS with IK/QA; that’s when steam started coming out of my ears, and put us in the let’s-get-this-damn-thing-over-with camp. We had both had our capitals locked down by DS agents/cursers, and in Jim’s case, 1407 influenced away by BS. Right about that time when I couldn’t replace my character losses, read: commanders, DS emmys retook all the xx04 camps I had in the mountains (at one point I had destroyed and recamped all of 2504 through 3004), and I saw the DrL was becoming resurgent up there, building up a new MT just NW of 3105. We resisted the two previous calls to concede up until the BS realignment, then we were the ones to call for that next concession vote.
Had the GB ground rules not changed, I would certainly never have joined another. Won’t rule it out now though, with the pickup pool and no-treys rule.
Drew
P.S. Noldo, eh Dave? So you’re the bozo you assassinated my Woodmen company cmdr at the DoL backup MT? BOO on you! <g> Caused Rob a lot of grief over a couple of turns as well trying to fix all the myriad of ramifications it caused…
OK that explains the stellar WK play.
I agree with that!
Thankee; right back at ya. I had just found out about DkL having 1806/1907 on the last two turns, so we were assembling countermeasures. <g>
So when we took both 1804 and 2305 on the same turn, you’re saying you wouldn’t have gone out but for lack of gold? I don’t recall for sure (and maybe we didn’t know precisely at the time…) but I was under the impression 2006 had already fallen, and that 3622 was Noldo by then? Btw, your missed curse probably wouldn’t have saved 1804, as I think we had a backup giving redundant orders.
Yes Drew. I made way too many mistakes in this game. I accept “bozo” title with humility and shame. Though I think my fundamental strategy was good, I just kept making really egregious errors:
Early - moved to wrong hex with NE agent company in HA & ended up losing loads of arties & chars in the ensuing turns.
Mid - whacked a char I didn’t know nation of. DOH. I feel quite ashamed about that one. Sorry it was you Drew.
Late - did MovA E instead of ForcM E from 2119 to go up mtn to CL backup capital (that was at that point his capital I think as I’d taken 3630 and all the rest of his Mordor pops)
Late - had MEOW screw up my entire set of orders. Rob wouldn’t fix it as it’s policy not to do so. So NE ran a set of orders that were two-turns back, causing NE to not double all the CL agents at 3630 and to lose a bunch of really high level emmie/agent chars and the NE emmie/agent company just sat at 3630 when it should have moved to 3222… That really really really sucked.
Yes, all of those were major screwups and I blame myself. John Folz my partner played a much better, error-free game.
Good job with Woodie & AR. I had a ton of your agent/ems doubled for a while as I landed with a NE emmie squad on a pop the same turn you did. I guess they either got killed or you un-doubled them later. It was very helpful to be able to watch what you were doing.
I understand that Rob was just following “policy” by combining DkL with LR, but that really sucked. NE was on top of DkL pops taking them with combined agent/emmie action and all of a sudden a ton of LR agents show up with no warning… I think this was bad because:
a. LR/DkL got a turn advance notice of the change and therefor had unfair advantage & opportunity to do the “unexpected”
b. a singleton nation player quit (I had assumed it was DkL that quit, but not it appears it was LR) to help his team, and help his team he did because it allowed DkL to prop up using LR
Dave
Btw, here is what my little corner of the world looked like. (Yes that is the Arth capital in the SW corner.)
Yes I had Arth redouble my guys. I had some of them friendly doubled before, and when they fell off the report, I kinda assumed it was Noldo, but didn’t know for sure of course.
We had a handful of friendlies doubled too, including Hallas who spent most of the game in captivity. <f>
Here’s the writeup that John Folz just asked me to post for our two positions:
-Harad still held almost all of N. & S. Harad through T-18
-Lost Harad capital on T-24.
-However, from turn 20 through 24 using agents, FK and Corsairs armies took all of North Harad as well.
-Harad destroyed QA’s capital on T11
-T15 NE small agent squad entered battle in S. Harad focus on Corsairs recruting bases
-T18 NE curse squad went active hitting QA capital than S. Harad area
-T19 DrgL mage and agent company met up with NE agent squad and NE curse squad next door and NE was able to kill DrgL 2 top mages and lost no one (I think we lost no one)
-T19 typo to move our curse squad to 2535 moved us instead to 2534 a hot bed at this time for agents trying to take my MT there. Ran into agent squad (DrkL we think). We made it out after 2 turns with our mages but lost half of our mage artys so curse squad had reduced effectiveness.
-T22 ran into QA/IK Emmy/mage squad at 2635 with all of us trying to recover some big arties. Also over this
turn and next few we lost 2 more mages (Elrond lived) and a few agents and headed out of Harad Land for our next target the DrkL who was a single nation at this point.
-T24ish Harad become a non factor and moved capital to NE lands other than info gathering and 1 last attempt late in the game to take out CL. See turn ???
-T26 after a few turns of regrouping and becoming a more emmy based company with a few agents moved on DrkL at 3622 and took on T28.
-T29 started our assult on 3621 DrkL MT but on T30 LR showed up and that is when we found out that DrkL was given to LR. So LR usinging this information that we did not expect moved onto 3621 to help save DrkL and it worked as we headed out of town to CL towns. We made it out intact. Thus, began our attack on CL.
-T32 took town at 3428 and moved to 3222 MT of CL and found Arth here also. So 3222 was captured by ARth. 3629 fell to us a turn or two later.
-T36 the assult on CL capital began with plans on hitting CL backup at 2219 with NE cav group with Harad cav group clearing the way to 2219.
-T40 NE took CL capital and Harad with 700HC attacked 2219 so it was under seige.
-T40 NE Cav group was suppose to go up to 2219 but we forgot to force march up due to the river. We had an extra turn of food but ran into a pop on way to 2219 that had a tower so got stopped.
-CL we would really like to know if NE made it up the Mt. he would have captured you city there. Did you have another backup MT on T41??? if so you would have lived if not you would have died.
-T41 we had most of the CL’s agent names at 3630 to double by NE but we sent in T40 orders again and that cost us not moving and not doubling CL agents and thus losing a character or two.
-T41 Harad picked up some Ents to help block any incoming armies trying to get to NE cav group (Corsairs I ended up blocking). This was done so NE can pickup some food and try to get back up to CL capital.
-End game - game ended with Harad on the brink of gettingknocked out with only 1 MT that was under assult but was going to try to raise a hidden town to MT this turn (had the gold and just over 110 Loy+emmy rank).
Harad kept alive by having characters at a lot of my camps spread out across ME and doing sells from those locations and NE sending me supplies about every 3 turns.
NE capital area was being hit hard with emmys but due to high loyalties only lost a few pops 0808 (harad’s) new capital, 0710 Harad town, and than Harad’s new capital most likely would have fallen this turn or next.
So when we took both 1804 and 2305 on the same turn, you’re saying you wouldn’t have gone out but for lack of gold? I don’t recall for sure (and maybe we didn’t know precisely at the time…) but I was under the impression 2006 had already fallen, and that 3622 was Noldo by then? Btw, your missed curse probably wouldn’t have saved 1804, as I think we had a backup giving redundant orders.
Yes it was covered - the major mistake there was the me failing to curse Sarkar two turns before and you moving your armies one hex from where I expected so I didn’t finish off the job.
What did you think of the double rule? With it I knew a lot of what the CL was upto for example and that was very uesful.
Clint (player)
Clint,
It shoudl continue to be absolutely ok to double anyone, anywhere, any time.
Dave
Tim Huiatt checking in.
Tony and I played Eothraim and Southern Gondor. I can honestely say I thought the dark servants played much better than the free people. We made a few mistakes, but the biggest one was allowing the Southern Gondor navy to get challenged and killed by meriot on turn 12 or so. That pretty much ended all of our effectiveness in the game. We had so many unfortunate timing issues. Probably more to us not be more aggressive. We lost 1500HC to Din Ohtar with the Eothraim on turn 7. That ended any defense of the Eothraim. The Ice King, Dog Lord and Dark Lietenants fired everything out after the Eothraim the first ten turns and when din did his magic and we did not have the backup, we had no defense. We sent two armies into mordor the first five turns burning 3822, The blind sorceror major town and a cloud lord town before the army was eliminated. That was probably a mistake. The turn we tried to move across pelargir the bridge was removed, and then cloud lord agents took down the 2500 or so Heavy cav in two turns as we had two backups with it. Again, a mistake in our play.
We left Northern Gondor out to dry. If I were him I would be really pissed at Southern Gondor. Dave saw us down in Harad but naming piddily 10/20 were just easy bait for the cloud lord agents. Nice job by the cloud lord. Failed to attack to remove corsairs cost harad a major town and the army did nothing when the commander and backup were assasinated.
Noldo gave us some ships, we continually market manipulated the timber to try and rebuild, but by the time we could do anything the massive character war started and we could not stop it. Five turns in a row our capital was besieged by a curse squad form a different gunboat pairing. We knew it was coming just could not stop it.
Major Kudos to the dark servants. We picked up the Dwarves but the position was in horrible shape in my opinion. Over a 15k deficit with 86 taxes, no emmys, no newly named pop centers and the starting pop centers being taken by the QA almost every turn. Major economic burden throughout the rest of the game.
I won’t play another no quit game without some type of diplomacy allowed. Tony and I put minimal effort into the game from turn 20 on which was unfair to everyone involved, but we just did not enjoy the game. Once the navy was lost and the character war assaulted us, Southern Gondor could do nothing. Again, we knew it was coming but could not stop it. Poorly planned by us I think. We only kept playing because it was no quit.
tim huiatt
Hiya Tim,
yeah, we (HA/NE) were definitely hoping for more help from SG against CO/QA. John and I noticed your navies/armies going poof and were thinking BACKUP! BACKUP. 
I think we sent you guys some cash once or twice? Thanks for sticking in there. I was SG/EO in GB96. It’s a tough pair to play in GB. I have total empathy.
cheers,
Dave
p.s. I agree with everyone that the experimental upgrades to the NW DS are a bad idea. I think DS have won all these games.
We thought the backups would not be needed that early, we were wrong. It was really costly for Harad. We actually had the eothraim send the woodmen a ton of gold (30k I think) real early and hoped our allies would see the message as amazingly we did not need money. Although everyone needed money towards the end. As Southern Gondor I actually tried to recruit enough to assault both Mordor and Corsairs, and in retrospect backups would have been better. However, even the armies with backups were eliminated in very untimely fashion. We would have made amends to the armies getting whacked but when our navy poofed, we were toast as we could no longer fairy over any troops. We tried, but the corsairs did catch and eliminate our transports. Yes, we should have had backups, we just played to aggresive and got burned badly, costing our allies. I think Harad would have held out much longer had we played it right.
Like I said, everytime we played aggresive, we got burned. Every time we played defensive, we got burned.
Much better played by the Dark Servants even more so than the mistakes we made In my Opinion.
By the end of the game Southern Gondor was down to only eight non hostage characters. The Eothraim capital was Olbamarl, Pelargir the Southern Gondor capital with Minas Tirith the capital the turn before.
We did take the Cloud lord capital last turn emmisarily, but lost all three emmys in the process to kidnap.
We had one nice agent, made it up to 90 rank with 17 stealth. Died the last turn to challenge as we stopped refusing and did not have the order to put him in a company.
tim
Here’s my map for reference.
Clint (player)
OK, I was Corsairs. And quite honestly, we got lucky. There is no way the Corsairs should be paired with Dragon Lord. It’s 2 nations that are totally under siege. If it wasn’t for a lucky challenge of a SG navy (Meriot was moving to pick up an artifact in the water), the Corsairs is lost. As it was, for the longest time I was at 99% tax rate and barely hanging on. Corsairs cannot withstand a combined SG and Harad attack. No way. And on top of that we had Noldo agents to deal with. And Bernd (Dragon Lord) got kicked out of Mirkwood fairly early and it was all we could do to survive. We probably could have dealt with Harad and Noldo, but throwing SG into the mix is brutal. We should have been eliminated turn 15/20 or so. One more little push and we’re history (MT loyalties 5 or 6, cursers on my pops, agents killing my armies that are protecting my pops, etc.)
And then having the FP have 2 trios of nations. Ugh. Should not be allowed. As soon as I thought we might have some breathing room, we had a trio to deal with.
Thank you to QA for saving my cap with a dragon on one of the turns.
If people are interested, I can dig up my old turns and give more details. As it is, it’s late and I’m really tired…
Marty
Corsairs
Believe it or not the, picking up the Dwarves hurt more than helped us. Yes keeping the Dwarves alive is important, but we probably should have elimintaed the postion and just picked up his assets. The Dwarves was a total drain on Southern Gondor which just continued to dwindle any meager chance we had.
I agree three nations should not be allowed. I also felt we had the corsairs on the wraps until we lost the navy challenge. Well done Marty and Bernd. Especially with the agents and sickness squad. Had we not lost the navy challenge the next wave coming over would have had three characters per army, and we passed the ROI to Noldo around turn 20 so he would have used it against you as well.
I truly felt the entire free side lost the game when we lost the challenge with the Navy. And we really would have gained almost nothing by attacking with the navy and moving. I know a lot of other things came into play as well. However, when you correctly intercepted the transports coming over and eliminated our entire navy, we could no longer support the attack on Corsairs.
Well done and way to hang in. Tim
I’ve played the Cor v Har (aligned game) a fair bit now. I’m pretty much of the opinion that it’s much more open than the NW or Mirkwood (two other external arenas to Mordor). IF, you’re just Cor v Har Cors should win (IMO). Through in QA and it’s pretty guaranteed. Note 12/21 is the most popular choice of duos btw. It’s something i’d love to play personally (after 6/23).
Add to that mix that SG might get involved (note might) and Har/SG should win. Add to that CL and often in GB you see the FK get involved (espy when the bridges go down that it helps its allied nation the QA - not in this variant of the scenario but) and you get a swing back in the favour of the DS. (LR can help out as can CL cavalry). So I think that in any given game there are so many factors that affect which side wins that arena that you can’t estimate who will win (add different levels of skills and …
Note the beauty of GB for me is that pressure in one region means less in a different region and with the lack of information more off-the-wall tactics can occur. I’d say that the balance is pretty decent in the game at present - with the new rules we’ll see how pick-ups work (looks like lots of players run out of puff towards the end but didn’t want to drop out of honour and respect for the No-drop rule).
Players (I’ve already put any orders in that I was going to so I got the GM hat on now and got the game up now):
1/4 Drew & Jim Carson
2/8 Frank Redmond - dropped
3/7 Tony & Tim Huiatt
5/9 Jonathan Hijuelos/ CJ Garnier
6/23 Ian Etchells/Chrise Guise
10/22 Dave Holt/John Folz
11/20 Clint Oldridge
12/21 Marty/ Bernd Luerhsen
13/15 Mark Stuckey - dropped
14/18 Paul Roberts
16/17 Kim Andersen
19/24 Chris Courtiour - dropped
Clint (player and GM)
Note: I’m always looking for feedback on how to improve the GB game - check out the Version 5 of the GB rules though as we’ve addressed many of the feedback critiques that have been given here. Eg Player Pool pick-up, no 3 nations, pick-up rules for dropped nations, change of duos etc. Well worth a read if you’ve got 20 minutes.
Clint (GM)