Surely the lack of communication prevents single “weak” Nations being picked on and gives them time to develope their strengths ?
First of all, I am not interested in the Gunboat pickup pool. Unfortunately I like to run a nation one way and usually it is not similar to how others run the nation. Sorry, that is just my opinion. I would prefer to start a gunboat game and run my nations from scratch. I think this is one of the problems that Harly has with dropped nations hence why I am in favour of allowing other players to pick up dropped nations.
I agree that the Cloud Lord (Noldo) should not be allowed to pick up a double scout nation. If someone else on your team does not pick up the dropped position, then the nation should be retired for the rest of that game.
And Ed, I totally disagree that a player should only be allowed to run one nation. I like running more than one nation, I like playing games against others where they run more than one nation, and I think it is great rule.
Tim
John, it does not. Take Rhuduar. You don’t think he is going to get picked on. He might not even be able to develop a high enough emissary let alone enough money to upgrade a new camp to a Major town in a safe area. Gunboat with no communication needs to be played with two nations per pairing, not individual nations.
tim
I disagree.
In most cases it is the cloud lord (and the long rider to a lesser extent) being a 3rd nation which is the game breaker. He is well hidden, hard to reach so he is almost always a boon as a 3rd nation. On top of this he can apply his power anywhere. When teamed up with any other agent nation pairing (which is all of them except dog lord/blind sorcerer) it effectively means the end to a free nation who is ganged up on, generally with no or little defense (northmen and eothraim come to mind).
Where it really gets bad is when you are the free and pick up a 3rd nation pairing and it goes against a cloud lord 3 team bam.
So I’ll go through the clint “no gains” system, but I think it will not be effective because there tends to be drops everywhere and things mix the pairing up quickly so you can get 2-3 pairing which are not like the inital ones.
Thus a no two nations paired together seems more appropriate.
I’ll post what I mean in a bit.
See ya,
Ken
I’d play Rhudaur as a single nation Gunboat. I’ve been blown to smithereens in every other kind of game as Rhudaur, a nice peaceful, glass of wine on the docks watching the sunset no allies ignoring your pleas for money/safe haven, yeah, that sounds like a nice game, actually…
Arfanbrad
Far worse when you fight a 3 CL team with double scouting when you’re
only a lowly 2 teamer. 
"If ME understands the ‘ire’ it causes why was QA given to CL-FK in the
game we can’t mention? Surely they would have understood it would
lead to a victory for the DS. "
There is no right solution in some situations. I don’t think it has caused the game to go in a specific situation here (I’ve checked the situation in some depth). Please stop talking about it - the game is current and the rules state that you cannot discuss a current game.
As for my ideas - more feedback here would be welcome - I see that Ken will give me his list - I would like that from the other players who’ve asked for an updated set of rules for all the nations please.
Clint
The fundamental problem is that a character-based nation can project its power back and forth across the map more easily than a military nation. Since the Darks start with the characters; three-man sets for the Darks create more problems once the agents get going.
The Cloud Lord being added to ANY new set is a problem; it dramatically shifts the dynamic of the game and the Free cannot compensate for the sudden introduction of large numbers of agents that flow freely across the board. I know; I’ve experienced it first-hand twice now. Simply do not allow the CL to be added to a three nation-pair, period. If that means the CL is eliminated, so be it. (I do not object to the CL being added to a single nation).
Three nation sets on the Dark Servant side are the problem because characters (and dragon information) can be shared so easily, unlike military strength. Perhaps dark servants shouldn’t be allowed to get 3-nation blocks at all, and not just the Cloud Lord.
I find it particularly frustrating to unleash a massive assault on a nation pairing, only to have that pairing be split apart as they’re crumbling and each nation of the pair handed to a separate pair, who can now prop each separate nation up. This plays havoc with military strategy for the Free.
Here are some concrete suggestions or possibilities:
(1) Eliminate or weaken (+10%) the CL kidnap/assassinate ability in gunboat. This weakens the impact of a 3-man CL block. Since I doubt this can be done without programing changes, some alternative suggestions:
(2) Do not allow the CL to join ANY three-man team, ever. The CL either gets picked up (solo) or added to another single nation, or it goes inactive til eliminated in six turns or someone can pick it up.
(3) Remove Rhudaur from the Dark Servant team entirely, give the Darks the Easterlings instead. You may have to tinker with fortifications for the Northmen and Eothraim to balance it if you did this.
(4) I like the idea of a pool of players before each gunboat game begins to pick up dropped positions, but I too am concerned that the nation may have been driven into the ground prior to my picking it up. You’ll need to give some free turns to people picking up nations, especially in gunboat.
(5) One person per nation… but the “nation pairings” can still talk to each other and coordinate normally. Frankly I think that this increases interest in the game and makes drops less likely. Then if one person quits, the other person can immediately pick it up.
(6) it’s a good idea to not give old turns of the third nation to the three-nation pairing. That may help a little.
Yep. I’d volunteer to be part of such a pool but some financial incentive is definitely in order to come in and try to make the best of a single nation (or a nation pair since one is likely on the verge of being dead anyhow).
(5) One person per nation… but the “nation pairings” can still talk to each other and coordinate normally. Frankly I think that this increases interest in the game and makes drops less likely. Then if one person quits, the other person can immediately pick it up.
MEGames already allows this in any case. You can bring in someone to join you and split your nation pair between the two of you. I did this with a set of 3 nations in one GB game actually (i.e. brought in 2 other players).
Bernout
Yes, I do this as well, but perhaps it should be mandatory. That would provide a ready pool of back-up players as well as discouraging people from signing up and then quitting on turn 3 because they’re mad that they only got 2 points of agent skill the prior turn. It might also help people maintain interest.
What does it cost per turn to play Gunboat ?
Is it twice the normal fee ?
Same cost per nation, so 2 nations is 2x the cost of 1 nation… Special Set Up though, so the game start fee is the same as Grudges (aligned neuts, extra fortifications, removal of a neut, etc…) which is 2x regular set up. So Gunboat is essentially a more expensive game. They will allow you to “share” a duo such that 2 of you can play the 2 nations how you like at standard single nation cost each, of course. Note, the set up fees are double “per nation” so setting up a Gunboat and getting your 2 Turn 0 pdf’s costs you double set-up fees for each nation. Yes, a more expensive game…
Guys - I need more feedback if you want me to do changes. GB format is very much a game in development and I think often will - there’s been lots of different formats of the game already and I think that’s a great thing.
We can’t do code changes - I think the CL (as a player) is a fine nation and is, although, clearly the best Killer nation, it’s got weaknesses. Game balance seems to be okay as there are weak nations - Rhudaur with CL definitely offsets- strengths and weaknesses there for example. The debate seems to be focussed on Cloud Lord - what about other nation duos. (Ditto Noldo with Harad - a weak with a strong nation).
Clint (GM)
Suggested Gunboat changes for future games
1) A pool of players come forwards that offer to pick up a nation should we not be able to find players outside the game for GB drops. They would be offered an additional free turn for the pick up (ie 2 free turns) with a guarantee that they pay for 5 turns (if the game ends any not used turns would be refunded). After that they’d get an additional free turn if they are still playing only one nation. They’d be eligible to pick up a dropped nation as first preference (along with other players on 1 nation). If we can’t get a player to pick up a nation then in that situation we’d allow the 3) to occur.
Note dropped duos could be picked up and split between 2 players- no special offer then.
2) Future games we not allow old turns for the 3rd nation.
3) Gunboat 1650 FP
Woodmen/Arthedain not allowed with: Cardolan, Dwarves, Sindar
Northmen/Dwarves n/a: Eothraim
Eothraim/South Gondor n/a: North Gondor
Cardolan/Sindar n/a: Arthedian, Noldo, Dunlendings
North Gondor/Dunlendings n/a: South Gondor
Noldo/Harad n/a: Woodmen, Sindar, Dunlendings
If a nation is down to one nation then it can pick up any other nation except Noldo can’t pick up Woodmen or Dunlendings.
1650 DS
Witch King/Dark Lieutenants n/a: All allowed
Dragon Lord/Corsairs n/a: Cloud Lord
Dog Lord/Blind Sorcerer n/a: All allowed
Cloud Lord/Rhudaur n/a: Dragon Lord, Ice King, Quiet Avenger
Ice King/Long Rider n/a: Dragon Lord, Cloud Lord, Quiet Avenger
Quiet Avenger/Fire King n/a: Cloud Lord, Ice King, Long Rider
If a nation is down to one nation then it can pick up any other nation except Cloud Lord can’t pick up Quiet Avenger or Dragon Lord.
Thoughts welcome (I think I’ve combined all the points above as best I can). Particularly want feedback on nation combos that are allowed.
Clint
Clint,
The Harad/Noldo combo is a good one and is needed to provide the Harad
with any long term sustainablity. The Noldo agents and emissaries can
provide much needed character support to the Harad giving the Harad
a chance against the QA and Corsiars military and some cover against
the character actions of the CL and DrL.
I agree with neither CL nor Noldo being teamed with a double rank nation
but I don’t think Sinda or a LR teaming with a double scout nation would
have the same effect. Simply because the LR or Sinda would probably
on have 3 or 4 killers max while a CL could have 10 killers utilising 5 double
recon scouts every turn. Big difference.
What do you mean by bonus would the players want to have in a player
pool? My thoughts would be the 1st turn free followed by every 5th turn
free and the last 5 game turn files.
Guy
Yes, a 3rd nation team shouldnt recieve old turns
A thought - nation pairings are both complimentary and generally geographically dissimilar. Weak and Strong, avoiding combining powerful SNA’s, and distant. Piffle. How about matching them geographically…?
Noldo-Arthedian
Cardolan-Duns
Dwarf-Woodmen
Sinda-NG
Eothraim-Northmen
SG-southern neut
for example. This would actually increase the Fog of War, as these pairings would have similar or extended maps, instead of 2 maps from different areas. (Sinda-Woodmen together would really “suck” there…!).
Throw in the Easterlings/LR pairing as a DS, make the Cloud Lord a single nation play (get’s 25 nations) that can never 1) add a nation to the duo or 2) be added to a duo - ie Cloud drops can be picked up by solo players or left to die only.
WK-Rhudaur
Dragon-Dog
Fire-Ice
QA-southern neut
Dark-BS
LR-Easterlings
Personally, it would be frustrating having Murazor dragging Arfanhil down like this, but if Duo’s are insisted on, it’ll have to do… 
Brad
As per Clints Request:
Not allowed:
1/4 n/a: 5,8,9,10,23
2/8 n/a: 1,3,4,5
3/7 n/a: 2,4,8,22
5/9 n/a: 1,3,10,22
6/23 n/a: 1,4,5,9,10
10/22 n/a: 1,4,7,9
1650 DS
11/20 n/a: 14*, 24
12/21 n/a: 14*,17,19
13/15 n/a: 14*
14/24 n/a: 11
16/19 n/a: 12,13,14*, 17
17/18 n/a: 13, 14*, 16, 19, 21
Note: The cloud lord can not be placed in a triple group. It can only be placed as a single or double pairing and can not be placed with the dragon lord or quiet avenger even if this is the case. This should not be a problem in the least. The CL is perhaps one of the easiest positions to fill in the game and can easily be run as a single nation. The only other duo restriction is the Noldo can not be placed with the woodmen.
IMO the CL is the crux of the problem as he can bring so much power to bare down so quickly anywhere on the board. When tripled he can swing games (I know the “uber experienced people” all giggle about how easy it is to “deal” with the CL assault, but for most players, having the two team group your fighting all the sudden have 5-8 agents camping your capital or freezing your forward assault can be game changing while your stuck with only two nations (who are geographically distant and tend to not have the character power to deal with the three to 1 advantage on them) .
Lets take a hypethetical. You are the Eothraim/South Gondor. You are doing good, the corsairs are losing the battle and you have them bottled in mordor and at turn 12 or so (A reasonable time for the classic “rhudaur fell, I quit” time. Oh look the Dog Lord/Blind Sorcerer got the cloud lord. Of course, you do not know that the turn it happens.
The Cloud lord now plops down on the South Gondor (it would be more likely EO, but lets make it as hypothetical as possible). with his 6 agents. Up to this point you have had no need to as of yet spread your characters to the wind because your playing gunboat against 2 player teams and the agent powers have tended to be dealing elsewhere.
Oh look you see the darks split up and the CL is now with the doglord/blind sorcerer. Best time to scatter the characters. But you can’t as 4 get kidnapped and 2 assassinated before you can react (you find out the same turn they issue the 6 agent orders)
Now I know you could have “spread out” as a precaution before hand, but you play with what your dealing with and the game your in. When this happens it drastically alters the game in general for the people playing against the enemy. It is the most exaccerbated with the CL who can project his power so quickly and effectively.
As a note, the comment of “you could just make a 30 point agent and send it to where they are stealing” is nutty at best. What idiot leaves an agent company at a pop center for more than a turn or 2 (unless there is reason).
From what I have seen often times crushing you enemy causes them to split (guy drops) and all the sudden your worse off than if you had just stalled him becuase now you have to deal with 6 instead of 2 nations (again exaccerbated if your the free because the darks all have a character nation in their combos).
That would an early death at best (Eothraim/Norhtmen).
They displace nations also to mimize collapse. It is less likely both the north/dwarf and the eothraim/SG players are going to suck. but a bad North/Eothraim means that whole flank collapses as an example.
The problem with matching things completely geographically is that the Free need to know what’s going on in other areas or they start suffering from “elf sickness”.
I like Clint’s suggested limits on pairs more than Ken’s; in fact I do not believe that military combinations (Rhudaur / WK or Eothraim / NG, for example) are likely to influence the game the way the rapid introduction of agents can. Also, I’d rather be a minimalist and keep the (can’t play with X) restrictions down if we can; it’ll be a pain to implement otherwise. So i’d strike military combinations from the restricted list.
Modifications that I would suggest to Clint’s list:
Only the ones in bold would be restricted.
FOR THE FREE: I think Eothraim / SG / NG might be a bit much for the darks, that’s why I’d leave that one in place. Otherwise I’d allow various combinations that Clint suggested limiting (due to my lack-of-concern for military combinations).
FOR THE DARKS: I generally agree with Clint’s assessment, except that I’d add the CL as not being allowed to join the WK / Dark Lts.
Bradford (bolded ones are what I’d suggest restricting)
- Gunboat 1650 FP
Woodmen/Arthedain not allowed with: Cardolan, Dwarves, Sindar
Northmen/Dwarves n/a: Eothraim
Eothraim/South Gondor n/a: North Gondor
Cardolan/Sindar n/a: Arthedian, Noldo, Dunlendings
North Gondor/Dunlendings n/a: South Gondor
Noldo/Harad n/a: Woodmen, Sindar, Dunlendings
If a nation is down to one nation then it can pick up any other nation except Noldo can’t pick up Woodmen or Dunlendings.
1650 DS
Witch King/Dark Lieutenants n/a: All allowed Cloud Lord
Dragon Lord/Corsairs n/a: Cloud Lord
Dog Lord/Blind Sorcerer n/a: All allowed
Cloud Lord/Rhudaur n/a: Dragon Lord, Ice King, Quiet Avenger
Ice King/Long Rider n/a: Dragon Lord, Cloud Lord, Quiet Avenger
Quiet Avenger/Fire King n/a: Cloud Lord, Ice King, Long Rider
This would basically mean the dog lord/blind sorcerer gets the CL between turns 8 and 20 most games. That is a nasty surprise to the SG/Eothraim team.
How about a middle ground. Everything listed as above except the cloud lord can not become part of a 3 nation team?
See ya,
Ken